So, I'm playing with where to mount the $20 dollar Fulton motor mount I got at a flea market, onto a SCAMP-in-progress.
I've got it all worked out for the trolling motor I intend to use, but if things don't work out . . . . .
Hey! >:( We're talking about someone who is regularly buried under the Crushing Weight of Reality, here! :'(
So my back up contingency plan (if I'm forced to go back to ICE engines) >:( is to locate the motor mount so I could also install a Honda BF2.3 outboard, if my previous trolling motor plans fall through.
So I'm online, getting dimensions for transom height, cavitation plate dimensions, etc and I trip over the owner's installation manual for the BF2.3 and scrolling through, I see this:
Honda_Manual.jpg
Seriously? :P
"Remove the three 5mm nuts with an 8mm wrench . . . ."
Gee Guys, when I tried that, NONE of the nuts moved!! :o
With diligently researched and published information like that, from no less an authoritative source than the manufacturer, ::) I figure I'm just going to go hit up my son to borrow his BF2.3 and hang it on the mount, to see where it might fit and be usable.
Areas of concern:
1) (Obviously) Proper engine height in the water, for efficient propulsion.
2) Things the motor could hang up on, when in the up (unused) position on the mount.
3) Ability to tilt motor up out of the water and not slam against the transom, or snag on everything.
4) Things that could snag or impede boat operation, such as the traveler hanging up on the motor tiller handle, etc.
5) Ability to start, operate, steer, etc. the motor, when deployed (down position on the mount).
Any of you guys using this motor on small sailboats, have any insights or experiences you could offer, to help save me from myself? ???
The boat I've used for the past 48 years came to me with a motor mount pre-installed, and those answers already worked out, so I'm treading on unfamiliar ground, here.
Thanks for any opinions (and especially, for any facts!),
Charles Brennan
Facts??? I have no facts! Not sure you can handle the facts ;) Small, four stroke, carb fed, gas outboard motors are the work of the devil.
Anywhere you use the terms impede, hang up, slam, snag, etc., the possibilities are so endless that they can't even be imagined.
Anywhere you use the terms start, operate, steer, etc., you are engaging in wishful thinking.
I don't actually have any useful information on a boat of that type and size, other than do you have oar locks installed?
Have I mentioned lately that I hate ICE outboards? ::)
Frank, The oarlock backing blocks have been located on the hull and installed for some time, now.
The oarlocks will be mounted on the coamings . . . . . .
. . . . once I have mounted the coamings. :-\
I am definitely of the:
"Pray to God, but Row for Shore" persuasion, but there is one Dirty Little Secret that no one ever talks about:
The weakest link in oar propulsion, is the rower.
Not sure I have as much stamina any more, as does a liter of fuel, or 50 or 60 Amps of battery.
Never seen a motor get arm or leg cramps, or blisters, or just generally run out of steam. :(
I intend to have all three forms of propulsion: Sail, Row, & Motor, available to me, but I've been on boats long enough, not to have too much faith in ANY of them!! :P
Your post really made me laugh this morning. ;D
Thanks,
Charles Brennan
My little excursion last week is a good example of what you get with rowing. Exhilirating sail in the afternoon. Time to get to desired anchorage - dead into a 15-20 mph wind. Tacked up to cove entrance then time to row. It was a hard 20 minute pull!. Wind pushing me about as fast as I could sail. Only made a few hundred yards. Flip side: next morning no wind. Easy, comfortable, even enjoyable 3.3 mile row back to the ramp moving about a boat length each stroke.
Here are some photos of my older Honda 2hp long shaft I picked up for $400 on the motor mount I found for $30.
In the photos the wood mount is 13 and 7/8" long and the bottom of the motor is (approximately) 30" from where it rests on top of the wood.
This first photo is the motor all the way up which is in the bottom notch of the motor mount.
1DSCN7149z.JPG
This photo is all the way up and tilted up.
2DSCN7150z.JPG
This photo is the motor in the next to the lowest of all 5 positions.
4DSCN7152z.JPG
This photo is the motor in the next to the lowest of all 5 positions and tilted up
3DSCN7151z.JPG
This is the motor in the bottom position of the motor mount.
5DSCN7153z.JPG
I have not had a problem yet with the motor up in the first photo position while sailing. I have not sailed with it tilted up as shown in the second photo. I will probably sail with it in the titled-up position like in the fourth photo. I hope this proves helpful and thank you for all the help you so freely share with us.
I don't tend to steer with the throttle but use the tiller instead. Here are photos of the throttle in 3 different down positions.
In the middle position.
DSCN7157z.JPG
The next position down.
DSCN7158z.JPG
In the bottom position.
DSCN7159z.JPG
Hey Charles:
Your SCAMP building fatigue seems to be showing.
A 5mm machine screw, nominal shaft/thread diameter, does indeed have a larger hex head, 8mm across the flats.
So, don't be too dubious of your manual.
On my SunDayCat, I modified the motor mount by changing the 'clamp-on' plate to be positioned slightly higher.
This enabled the motor mount to stay in the same position for both motoring and sailing.
Which is much more convenient transitioning by not needing to reposition the parallel linkage.
My outboard is Tohatsu 6HP Sail Pro extra-long-shaft, so my dimensions are probably not relevant to you.
Regards, Roland
Do you remember my dual installation? - ICE on the motor mount, modified electric motor on the rudder.
(http://dcwi.com/nybarra/Klingon-on.JPG)
Charles ,I'm going through the same process as you .The mounting pad that bolted
on back when our boat was new ,finally rotted away after 40 plus years .
Doug's photos empathathize the value of an adjustable mount .
I have a spare to send if you find it would help
Timm, Thank you for your kind offer, but I'm in good shape for motor mounts. A hefty plastic honey-comb pad came with the mount I already bought. If I had any criticism at all, it would be that it is perhaps, too hefty! It looks a little out of scale on such a small transom, and I'm considering making a smaller "wooden" mounting pad.
A little hefty:
20250309_110954 1024X768.jpg
Here's a pic of the other side:
20250307_105158 1024X768.jpg
("Wooden" = Southern Yellow Pine wood x 3 coats epoxy, 2 layers 6 oz. fiberglass cloth, 2 more coats epoxy, all mounting plate through-holes over-drilled, filled with thickened epoxy and re-drilled, coat of EZ Poxy primer and three coats of paint; so . . . . mostly still wood.)
My son, Chris is in the same boat as you, on his Sea Pearl 21, that also has a rotted motor mount pad. If you could post a pic, perhaps he might make use of it. I don't know his current plans, if he's building a pad of his own, could use a new one, or might want to cajole his Dad into making TWO pads!! ;D
Hope this clarifies,
Charles Brennan
Doug, You have no idea how much your pics helped formulate my plans, but you are likely to see some of it in a future Almost-a-SCAMP project report.
Thanks muchly,
Charles Brennan
Roland, Your reply:
Quote from: Roland of Macatawa on Mar 07, 2025, 02:58 PMYour SCAMP building fatigue seems to be showing.
A 5mm machine screw, nominal shaft/thread diameter, does indeed have a larger hex head, 8mm across the flats.
While technically true, is also somewhat misleading.
The Honda instructions specifically referred to a nut, (not a bolt) and nuts are always measured across the flats.
For example, a given 6-32 nut could be 5/16" across the flats, or another 6-32 nut could be 3/8" across the flats when additional surface area grip range is desired. I've used both types.
So my opinion, that the Honda manual writers were all wet, stands! ;D
As for "SCAMP building fatigue", ??? I am sure that is coming but so far, I've experienced nothing but exhilaration and anticipation on this project.
Although certainly, I would not have set out to be a boat builder as my first choice in acquiring a sailboat, I find I'm enjoying the process immensely! :)
Hope this clarifies,
Charles Brennan
Yes, working on boats can be enjoyable and skill building, but that doesn't take away from the pleasure of complaining about it! 8)
I refrained from using an adjustable mount for one reason. I didn't trust that transom framing, considering it too light for the added moment to swing it AWAY from the transom. A couple of feet shorter and different materials and builder make a big difference ;D I think Frank is right, there is no possible way to think of ever contingency and just when you get comfortable, wham you get bit. I had to reroute the traveler bridle and STILL don't trust it. I've done the trolling motor thing and that sense of utility I got when Fed Ex delivered the old Nissan is way and beyond any other means of propulsion.
Riley, your statement:
Quote from: Riley Smith on Mar 12, 2025, 10:05 PMI've done the trolling motor thing and that sense of utility I got when Fed Ex delivered the old Nissan is way and beyond any other means of propulsion.
Was a little sobering.
I was curious:
What size and type battery were you using?
What was your average range, when using a trolling motor?
In what ways did it let you down, (other than endurance)?
What were your specific frustrations?
I used a trolling motor on
Urchin, 35 years ago and after 3 years of usage, ultimately went back to an ICE outboard.
But technology has not been standing still, in those ensuing three decades
I'll be using the same motor on a boat 1/3rd
Urchin's weight, with twice the battery Ampacity and half again, the battery endurance of lead-acid tech, with the ability to re-charge via comparatively hefty solar array panels.
So far, electric vs gas range/usage numbers are looking tantalizingly close to being usable for my average cruising, daysailing, weekending, needs.
About the only other thing I can think of to mitigate range anxiety, is to modify my motor for PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) control, to squeeze a few more watts out of it.
Tell us!
Inquiring minds want to know,
Charles Brennan
SO...the long slog was a no-no on the trolling motor. A long slog upwind to get back to the ramp. S R Cat is not designed for that, so the ICE motor is used there. It's noisy and I prefer to sail but there are sometimes daylight and time constraints. And lets face it, the catboat is fun to sail but sometimes it more funner to get where you're going. I was sure wishing I'd brought it on the FL 120 under the sun and no wind. That sense of utility. Yes, battery tech has no doubt increased and it is much better, as one of the problems back then was hauling around a hunk of lead and a disintegrating neck bone. And another was how much juice to you have left? And that sinking feeling when you realize that the revs are getting slower. Just to touch on a few. Was it underpowered? Yes. And yes, I realize some or all of them have been addressed in the electric revolution, but I can carry around another CHARGE with my ICE. And it has a helluva range. Apples and Oranges if you use the boat is a different way. No difference than you have a sloop and I have a catboat. It's our decision. Go with it and I can guarantee, you'll learn how YOU feel about it ;D
I am considering biting the bullet and possibly go with an ePropulsion eLite to save weight on the transom and cut the noise. It also can survive immersion. I have oars and sail along with the ability to recharge it with my onboard battery.
NoelH has experience with the Torqeedo Travel and the eLite. Maybe he might have useful info for you.
He responded to I post I did a while back on a video about the eLite on a Scamp.
video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpEajuFIUOA
NoelH's response.
ePropulsion Elite is my backup motor to the Torqeedo Travel. Vela is 800lbs empty, LOA 15 feet, and IIRC 14.5 ft at the waterline. Slippery hull through the water. Did a little comparison test this past Spring. Same based on screen read out of watts. Torqeedo repeatedly moved Vela more than 0.5kts faster. Depth above propeller was similar. JMHO, either the readouts were incorrect or the Torqeedo propeller just generated more efficient thrust.
I rarely motor. Maybe once or twice a season. Maximum distance that I can remember was ~6nm. Motors are used just to get in and out of the marina. Torqueedo is overkill for that purpose.
ePropulsion has already one factory recall for the eLite. Free fix, but real pita to ship a lithium powered outboard. The battery module is built in and not removable. When enquiring about replacing the battery pack when dead the ePropulsion person said not to worry. Motor is designed to maintenance free with a duty life of 7-10 years of normal use. Then I guess you just landfill it.
I like the design and function of the eLite. It is light(IIRC, 7kg) and easy to pull off the motor mount to stow while rocking away in a small sailboat. It looks to be another Chinese copycat. The much more powerful and expensive French built Temo 1000. Temo 1000 has a quick and easy removable battery pack allowing users to switch over to a spare battery with minimal fuss and effort. Torqeedo is a pita. First unscrew the tiller control cable and then the battery power cable. Both have way too fine threads that can easily be cross threaded even on land. Battery on my Travel is ~10kg.
Then there was this video on setting up onboards charging for the eLite. You may have already seen these videos as Small Craft Advisor has featured them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGVP8XWCEfQ
I use a torqeedo 1103 as both an auxiliary outboard on my 3ton Imexus 28 cruising equipped trailer sailer and as our inflatable dingy motor very successfully. The newer 1103 performs much better than my previous 1003 in a number of respects.
The motor tilts higher and the release mechanism is better and the motor is far quieter.
I use the torqeedo for river cruising where twists and turns and width often make sailing difficult whilst retaining the ability to move silently without fumes and fuel use.
It also gets a workout in doldrum like conditions or directly upwind in low breezes.
Our main outboard is a monster 115 hp Yamaha with power tilt and trim, electric start, remote throttle and electronic monitoring of just about everything eliminating virtually all the usual outboard gripes.
We rarely use it and even rarer to its potential but it comes in handy blasting quickly back to shelter or crossing breaking river mouth bars. Yes it is the cause of both ridicule and comment but it does have its uses and has towed a fair number of other boaters out of trouble as well.
I use a 4 hp long shaft outboard on my Santana21. The Mount has only 2 positions (Up & Down). It is spring loaded to assist in a quick lift when needed. It is barely, but adequately, available to pull the rope start when fully down. It is also barely, but adequately available to use the motor's tiller handle for steerage. I keep the steering friction adjustment fairly stiff so it stays straight without attendance. With it straight, I use the boat tiller to steer. It has no neutral, nor reverse. A full 180 deg spin to face backward for slowing or reversing, putting the tiller handle nearly out of reach. I have to two-handed grab the cover to steer in reverse. Do NOT get a spin-to-reverse outboard for a sailboat if you need to maneuver in close quarter harbors. Also check whether the rudder (swing up for shallow water) will hit the running outboard prop if swung hard over. If the final mount height proves less than ideal, it is easier to make a new mount board on the motor end of the aluminum bracket than it is to re-position the bracket on the transom of the boat.
One last 'positive' comment on my setup... the motor raised and tilted forward ended up just right to act as a backrest when I'm sitting on the starboard seat in a relaxed cruising position.
The Honda 2HP is similar. No "real" neutral. just feather the prop down until it almost stops spinning. No reverse gear, it requires that the entire motor be spun around, flipping the handle as you bring it around. It took some practice to do it smoothly.
Hopefully not jinxing the Torqueedo. 7 years of no issues except for the poorly designed kick up locking bracket. Way under built. Emailing Torqueedo back then the person noted it was not designed to hold up the motor while sailing. Huh.... Replaced the bracket before coming up with my simple fix and stronger fix for a price of piece of scrape PVC and velcro strap. Sounds like Torq realized they had a poor bracket with the redesigned model. On paper the Temo1000 seems to have the better mounting design. Simple, quick to remove the motor and stow it when sailing. Or just swivel out of your way vs. having a wart hanging off the transom. Plus the easy to switch battery system. eLite more or less copied the design.
The eLite like the latest Torqs are all direct drive. No reduction gear. One less part to fail. Higher efficiency. Significantly quieter. eLite is almost silent. Just the sound of water thrust and a faint hum.
Wonder if both brands will be subjected to additional import tariffs? ePropulsion are from China. Torqueedo are manufactured in Germany.
The noise/vibration with the ICE is my main complaint. As far as utility, it can't be beat IF you can get one that runs aka Frank's decidedly bad luck. I've got an old Nissan myself that got retired and I dream that I might get fixed for a back-up one day. (It hasn't happened despite a lot of tinkering). The vibration AND noise is not nearly as bad with the Honda as with the old Nissan. The four-stroke is much quieter and it ISN"T WATER COOLED so you're not destroying your motor ever time you run it (Salt water). I usually keep it locked and steer with the tiller, trying to ensure I don't have to cut to hard to starboard lest the rudder get shredded.
I have a Yamaha 2 1/2 horse four stroke for the dinghy . While I've only had it a year ,it's proven to be extremely reliable . Being liquid cooled it is very quiet .I can run for perhaps 30 minutes on the included tank .
Best $400 dollars I've spent on a boat
IMG_6424.jpeg
Looking at our stern our rarely used ICE outboard doesn't suffer from many of the complaints listed here!
With power up and down and trim and tilt and hydralic steering and quick disconnect from rudder steering it makes living with an ICE outboard a dream on our trailer sailer.
However we tend to use or Torqeedo 1103 far more frequently as it silently powers our monster trailer sailer at 3 knots at half throttle for well over an hour and 15minutes per battery ( we have three) in calm/low wind conditions and we use it to assist our sails when cruising in company directly upwind in gentle conditions given that's not our unusual yacht's preferred sailing direction!
If it's blowing and we need to get somewhere upwind then that's dispatched quickly via the outrageous iron wind sitting on our stern!
As long period onboard cruisers ( weeks to months) we try to avoid that direction of travel in those conditions to conserve fuel as 115hp of outboard is a hungry beast even at 5/6knots never mind at 15knots! IMG_6442.jpegIMG_6525.jpeg