Not entirely new to sailing, but new to fixed-keel boats. My wife will be at best an observing passenger, so pretty much everything for me is a single-handed effort.
As it stands now, I have a 30 pound Minn Kota trolling motor for power. It should be enough to move me to and from the dock, but I question using it to drive the boat onto the trailer far enough that I can climb off and attach the winch.
I'm open to suggestions and/or opinions. However, I live in the desert and may own the only fixed-keel boat within a 30 mile radius, so local opinions are scarce.
I've never been a fan of the drive-on technique for any boat, but especially a keel boat. Takes its toll on the launching ramp by digging holes at the end of the ramp. Takes its toll on the boat unless you have a very nice stern and keel roller system that lifts the bow high enough.
Equip your trailer with guide posts (often call goal posts for obvious reasons). Get the trailer deep enough to that the boat can float on to the trailer most of the way. Then get off - you can mount a boarding/walking platform on the trailer or wear appropriate boots. Winch the boat the rest of the way, pull off the ramp, and you can start de-rigging.
Fred W
ODay (Stuart) Mariner 19 Sweet P
If you don't have a dock at the ramp, it's most likely impossible to load without getting very wet. If you don't have enough horsepower to pull a wakeboarder, you don't have enough horsepower to 'power load' the boat onto a trailer.
If the ramp is too shallow to float the boat onto the trailer, make sure your winch cable/strap is nice and long, and plan on wading up to at least your waist to get it attached.
I have a Compac 23IV which has a 27" draft. I lower the trailer until the upper bunks are about 3/4" submerged, ease the boat forward at slow speed until I'm sure the keel is between the keel guides and the hull is nestled in the bunks, then attach the winch line and crank it the rest of the way. It is not too hard. I have keel rollers spaced a foot on center and the bunk material is fairly slippery when wet. I have a tongue extension on the trailer but have never had to use it at a half dozen different ramps, its use depends on the slope of your ramp. I have always done this solo. All these ramps had docks to tie the boat off to while backing the trailer.
Thank you everyone for the responses. It appears that I was right to be doubtful of the "drive on" method. It's just as well because I am aware of the washout it causes at the ramp foot.
It appears that I'm going to have to get wet, no matter how I do it. I won't melt.
That leaves the question of how to get down off the boat. The normal stern-mounted boarding ladder will drop me in the deeper water at the stern. The boat is unlikely to be far enough forward to use the normal trailer-mounted ladder. At 77, I'm not able to emulate Tarzan. I've seen some trailer setups with side bunks in place of goal posts, and perhaps that is a solution with a second bunk rail added to create a wide ladder that will me to climb down to the trailer fender and then to the ramp. Anyone have thoughts on this?
No, drive on with a keel displacement hull is not going to work. The best you can do is get a running start and hope you are aligned well enough that you center on the keel guides and don't hang up there, relying on the kinetic energy of the mass to get you as far as it will take you. Once you stop on the trailer, no small auxiliary motor will get you further.
Best, if you can, use a ramp with a pier to hop off to then go around to hook up your winch strap, walking on the trailer tongue if you want to limit your wet experience. That is what I do.
If you don't have a side pier, perhaps you can rig a rope ladder with solid rungs to drop off the bow area and climb down to the trailer to hook up. I have climbed down without a ladder on one occasion, but that was a few years back. 78 now, not so sure I could do that.
I concur with other's suggestions, but to stay dry I put on some chest waders as I wrestle to load my Montgomery 15 onto the trailer. It can be a bit tricky when there is a side wind, and trailer guides can help.
I agree, hard to power load any sailboat, and even my 80# thrust Motor Guide would be hard pressed to get much momentum going for something like that. I always loaded my Aquarius 23 at ramps with a dock and had to load from shore because of width. What I found helpful was to warp the boat onto the trailer, sufficiently far back, using a long dock line one bow thrown over the winch post, and basically a homemade 5' docking stick of pvc and bungee cord over the rail cleats on whichever side I needed. More rigid than just the docking line itself. Once I got her into position on the bunks and "stuck" enough, I could walk to the truck, down the trailer tongue, and use the dock line to get her up close enough to get the winch hook on and crank the rest. Wet up to the knees, but not the worst! I often thought of modifying a boat hook to take the winch hook, but never got around to it. Also agree with using goal posts and consider some soft guides near the bow too.
I'm really good at avoiding getting my feet wet. I back the truck down close enough to the finger pier to step into the bed, then walk out on the trailer. MOST of the time I stay dry ;D
Please don't power launch or retrieve. At the local marina there are signs posted in multiple locations but some people cannot read. Initially there was "only" a dip that snagged a few longer trailers or worse.. Then the undercutting apparently caused the end of the concrete ramp to degrade to a point launching was not possible.
I sail single handed. Vela is a small an light boat (15ft/~800#, draws ~14" with keel and rudder retracted) that is easy to launch and retrieve just using lines. Some days... Sort of miss the trailer. Usually spot on with attempt #2. Yes, the feet do get wet to attach the winch shackle. I need to use 4 ft of the trailer extension resulting in a bit of a reach requiring wet feet. Friend single handed does the same with his Oday23. He is one of the people that probably have evil thoughts about power launchers. Needs to keep an eye on the edge of the ramp.
As I stated in my first reply, I'm aware of the erosion problem caused by powering onto the trailer.
My big problem is getting off the boat if I have to be in it to get it started on the trailer. Standing beside it on dry land, the gunwale is at least 5-1/2 feet off the ground. I have an extendable step ladder that I use.
The boat is wider than the trailer tread, so I may be able to get close enough to the dock (if there is one) that I can simply step ashore. Otherwise, I'm going to get wet.
Aprés Vous, A lot of the advice you are getting, is from people (including myself!) :P with shallow draft hulls. A lot of well-intentioned advice only works for half of the retrieval sequence.
For example:
A winch stand ladder doesn't do any good when you are 20 feet away from it, at the far end of the trailer, on the bow of your boat.
Seems to me, a power-on retrieval is a LOT of work!! :o
1) Arrive at ramp.
2) Get out of boat and go get tow vehicle/trailer.
3) Get back into boat and power over and onto trailer.
4) Get back out of boat, go to the front of the trailer and retrieve the boat.
I single-hand a lot and I do all the launching and retrieving, by myself. So getting on and off the boat is a given.
(Who's going to go get the tow vehicle and the trailer?) ???
Once I leave the boat, I don't get on it again, until it is sitting on the trailer.
A ramp is a given, since you have a trailer/sailor.
The two cases for retrieval are: 1) Dock. 2) No dock.
Case 1: Dock.
You pull alongside the dock and tie off as close to the end of the dock (away from the ramp edge) as feasible.
This gives you room to back the trailer in, directly in front of your boat, tied well back on the dock.
Step off the boat onto the dock and go get your vehicle and put it in the water at the ramp, preferably next to the dock and directly in front of your boat.
Exit the vehicle, go up on the dock and untie your dock lines, the stern line and the bow line.
Goal posts on the trailer are a great help here, as you flip the bow line over the closest goal post and pull the bow line gently, to ease the nose over between the two goal posts.
Do NOT try to use the bow line to drag the boat forward; use the stern line to nudge the boat forward, occasionally pushing the hull away from the dock with your foot, if necessary.
Sometimes, the act of nudging the boat from the stern line will cause the bow to yaw too far towards the far goal post; simply pull in gently on the bow line to guide the hull.
In other words, move with the stern line, steer with the bow line.
Once the hull contacts the trailer rollers/bunks/what have you, pull the stern line as hard forward as you can to keep the boat from floating back off the trailer. This might not be easy on a weekend with a lot of other boat ramp traffic, as the waves from other launch/retrievals might lift the hull and allow it to drift off. Pull firmly! :P Toss the stern line into the cockpit and run the bow line as far forward on the dock as you can and lay it down next to the edge of the dock. A suspenders-and-belt kind of guy might tie the bow line off to the nearest dock cleat at the front of the dock, just in case.
Walk down the dock to the ramp edge, then down alongside your vehicle, and retrieve the bow line from the edge of the dock where you left it. Lead the bow line over to the trailer, at the waters edge and balancing your 77 year old self with a hand on the winch stand, step up on to the trailer frame and onto the 2X8 pressure treated plank mounted on the trailer frame edge, just clear of where your hull normally sits.
Keep tension on the bow line.
This does two things:
1) Keeps the hull from floating away.
2) Gives you something to help keep your balance.
Assuming you pulled out plenty of slack from your trailer winch cable when you went to get the tow vehicle, and draped the hook over one of the cross members towards the back of the trailer, you can rest your hand (for balance!) on the hull and lean down and get the winch cable hook and attach it to the boat.
Use either the bow line or the winch cable to steady yourself to walk back up the trailer, towards the winch.
Retrieve the boat, normally.
Yes, you will get wet, but usually only up to your ankles, or perhaps up to your knees.
Step from the ramp, to the rear vehicle fender, to the trailer frame and your feet won't even get wet until you are well down the trailer frame, next to the bow of the boat.
Case 2: No dock.
Yeah, you're gonna get wet.
Bring the boat to the ramp until the hull grounds out on the bottom of the ramp.
Your stern ladder is in deeper water, but your bow is in shallow(er) water.
Go forward, with the bow line and a halyard. (I usually use a jib halyard.)
The bow pulpit is usually in the way, but if you can step off just aft of that, you can lower yourself to the water, using that tied-off halyard to arrest your descent. It keeps from you from jumping 5½ feet down, into the water and turning an ankle (or worse!) from landing on a rock or in a hole. By lowering yourself like that, you don't have to fold yourself up like an inch-worm to get over the side and you're vertical the whole time and descending at your own chosen rate of speed, not Mother Nature's rate of 32 feet per second per second.
(Gravity: Ain't it a b!tch???) :o
Secure the halyard temporarily (sucks, to see the halyard end rocketing skyward, to the halyard block!) :'( and then lift the hull as much as possible to keep it from drifting off, from other boater's wave action. (Now, probably isn't the time to ask if you remembered the vehicle keys!) :o
Wade ashore and get your vehicle and trailer and back it in as close to the hull, as you are comfortable with.
Walk out along the trailer plank, using the winch cable for balance and reach the bow and retrieve the bow line. (Don't forget to flip the bow line over the goal post, first!)
Push the boat back into deeper water (a firm grip on the winch cable for balance, helps here!) and snub the bow line when the hull is clear of the end of the trailer. Arresting the hull momentum with the bow line, is why you needed a firm grip on the winch cable, when the hull tries to jerk you off-balance and into the water. :o
Pull in on the bow line until you can attach the winch cable hook and retrieve, normally. 8)
I'm two years behind you and have been doing this procedure for quite a few years, so the fact that you're worrying about this at age 77, is a testament to your health!! ;D
The key points you need are:
1) Goal posts, used to both guide the hull and "lever" the nose into position, on the trailer.
2) Trailer plank to get from the front of the trailer to the back of the trailer, where the hull is.
On my trailer, both bunks are flat, so I simply walk on them.
20230419_163249 1024X768.jpg
With a fixed keel, you will probably need a plank on the outside of the keel supports.
3) Lowering yourself over the side safely from the front, instead of trying to deal with the stern ladder and deeper water.
4) Using a winch cable or bow line to help steady yourself.
5) Proper length bow and stern lines. A good rule of thumb for bow line length, is from the back of the trailer to the driver's door.
After you get into enough situations where the stern line is too short or the bow line too long, you will find that tying the ends together temporarily, gives you a "loop" and now you can devote as much length to whichever end needs it most at that moment, to maintain control of the hull from the dock.
Hope this helps,
Charles Brennan
This is what 27" looks like trailered. Notice the keel guides low and the continuous bunks high. There is no way to "power on" to this trailer with small aux. What works is setting the trailer with about one third of the bunks above the water to use as a target. Get a running start centering those bunks with whatever your mode of power. Let kinetic energy take you as far as possible, in my case this leaves me about 3-4' of winch crank. Make sure, (you will know) that the keel is in the guides, in this setup there is about 1" of total clearance at the widest part of the keel. Once you are in the bunks and guides whether you get wet or not has to do with do you have a pier or the agility to drop down from the bow to the trailer to walk either out or in to the winch post. I've done both, not sure I can do the drop down any more, nor even have the balance to "walk the plank" from the truck out. So getting wet is to be expected, fortunately my haulouts have been in the late summer mostly, I don't trailer sail anymore but stay home in the water, so in and out are for maintenance sessions. And it's not about getting wet, it is about how wet you get.
Wish I had taken a pic of the trailer at the ramp ready for loading.
If you have a keel board rather than rollers or bunk rollers rather than continuous bunks your mileage may vary.IMG_20171011_093835953.jpg
, especially if I add some stair tread tape to the top surface.
The use of kinetic energy sounds good, but I'm going go have to do a bit of backing and filling before I become confident enough in my control to try it. That lack of brakes can be a real downer.
As purchased, the keel sits on a keel board supported by a single cross member, with no keel guides or goal posts. The gel coat on the leading edge of the keel has a chip in it that I suspect may have been caused by hitting either the end of the keel board, or the aft cross member. I plan on putting in a new keel board that spans 3 cross members, and a keel guide. I also plan on adding goal posts, with markers to indicate optimum water depth When backing the trailer.
Charles,
I noticed that you just parted with your Windrose 18. Above the waterling, It's virtually identical to my 5.5. I'm curious about your mast cradle. How tall was it, and did it create enough headroom at the companion way to allow you to go below easily? Also, did you have any intermediate mast support? My mast tends to sag in the middle when supported only at the bow pulpit and the stern.
Après Vous, If you install a keel board spanning three cross members (sounds like a good plan) You should also consider installing Glyde-Slicks on the keel strip. It will make launching and retrieval much easier. Stuff really slides on those HDPE strips.
https://tacomarine.com/dockside-accessories-p06-06?srsltid=AfmBOooCw9W6rTcRPviNYh2onWMsWVjyrhbaqS5ydLHsUkEVI15uQhoX
I no longer use or need them, but I used to have reflective tape on the goal posts at the optimum water depth to launch my boat. This was a useful gauge. If the rear wheels of the truck hit the water's edge and those tape strips were still above the water line, I knew I couldn't push it off and would need a snap launch, instead. The reflective tape was useful for night launches and lit up brightly, from the truck's back up lights.
Currently, the visual guide/gauge is on the trailer fenders themselves. Again, if the truck's rear wheels hit the water's edge and the tops of the trailer fenders are still out of the water, a snap launch will be required. If they are level or slightly submerged, the hull will float off easily.
Especially, with those Glyde Slicks! ;)
Here is an example of a snap launch from Cedar Key. Note the trailer fender tops are above the water line.
20230506_090807 1024X768.jpg
BIG Fan of Glyde Slicks! ;D
20230419_163249 1024X768.jpg
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This pic is a little out of scale, due to camera lens foreshortening, but the key part of the pic, is the continuous staggering of the pieces of 2" square tube.
With this geometry, the mast spreaders stop before the rear mast roller.
Previously, you had to hop the mast spreaders over the rear mast support and it was very cumbersome.
The other reason for the height at the rear, is so when the mast is laid in the mast step, the mast clears the angle of the companionway hatch and also allows the mast step bolt, to be more easily inserted.
With keel rollers at both ends of the mast stands, the mast can easily be moved fore and aft. For example, I move the mast all the way forward, so I can attach the Windex onto the top of the mast, standing on the transom.
Conversely, I can slide the mast aft to place the end of the mast on the mast step.
Before the rollers were installed, you had to lift the mast up and walk it back, trying not to stumble on various parts of the cabin. :o
Here's a more normative angle of the mast supports.
20221007_164056 1024X768.jpg
That height was chosen not just for the mast step attachment, but also for the ability to traverse Burger King drive-throughs! ;D
You may have to zoom in a fair bit, but there is a black bungee cord holding the back stay forward along the mast and it goes over the top of the mast and hooks into either side of the mast step bracket. It keeps the center of the mast from oscillating as the rig goes down the road.
You will notice a very slight curvature (sag) in the center of the mast, but that's just bungee cord tension. The Dwyer mast is quite strong and reverts to straight across, as soon as the bungees are removed.
20250621_114022 1024X768.jpg
In this pic you can see the shrouds do not interfere with the cabin access/egress.
This is on purpose. One set of shrouds has a (black) Velcro strap to hold them to the mast, as does the (gray) Velcro strap on the other set of shrouds on the other side. However, that still leaves a fair amount of mess, so a third (blue) Velcro strap holds all of the lines close to the mast and forward of the companionway hatch. Look closely, and you will see it about a foot ahead of the other two Velcro straps
Otherwise, you'd hang yourself, getting in and out of the cabin. :o
Hope this clarifies,
Charles Brennan
Either hang yourself or trip and take a header over the side.
I learned the "bungee the shrouds out of the way" trick from another TSBBer when I went sailing with him. (....King? Hunter something?) Works well on Anungoday.
Charles, are your mast rollers a buy-able thing, or something you made? I'd like to see a clearer pic of those.
Noemi, Well . . . . . ::)
Like most of the stuff on Urchin, it kind of evolved, over both time and misadventure! :'(
In Ye Olde Pre-Digital Camera Dayes, my boat came with a forked mast stand that sat on the gudgeons and the front of the mast was simply lashed to the bow pulpit, with carpeted padding. :P
It's Sole Virtue, was that it held up the aft end of the mast, but otherwise, thoroughly sucked. >:(
For example, the spreaders hit the stand early and the mast had to be lifted and hopped over the fork to get the mast to mount on the mast step plate, properly.
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Lashing and un-lashing from the bow pulpit got old fairly quickly, so I hit up one of the local south Florida trailer manufacturers for a winch/mast stand for a Hobie Cat, as the analog pic shows below.
Windroseontrlr.jpg
That lasted a few years, until a super low tide at Bakers Haulover ramp caused so much of a retrieval load, it trashed the Hobie mast stand. :'(
So I put the original winch stand back on the trailer, cut off the un-bent part of the mast stand and bolted the remainder, to the winch stand.
Fast forward a few more years, until a Key Largo sailing trip with Tom Parent ended (predictably!) in disaster and this time, the winch stand failed! :(
Trlr_7 1024X768.JPG
That was how I jury-rigged it, to get it home from the Keys.
And as is my wont, I beefed up the bejesus >:( out of the NEW bigger, winch stand!
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Check out the ½-inch U-bolts on the front half of the winch stand base, as well as the hefty reinforcing straps.
This is the top part of the Hobie Cat mast stand with the vee roller and two "Y" side rollers.
Trlr_5 1024X768.JPG
The original pipe-fork aft mast stand had pretty well rusted apart by now, so I had some right angle brackets welded to the mast stand, drilled them out, tapped them and screwed in some threaded rod and finally, had the threaded rod ends welded to make a very robust set of pintles, to fit the gudgeons on the transom.
And that whole assembly got moved to the back of the boat.
(A Thing Worth Engineering . . . . )
The geometry for the spreaders was good. I could move the mast all the way aft, for the end to fit the mast step plate and not have the spreaders hit the fork.
No more "mast hopping".
My next problem, was the angle to fit the mast end into the mast step plate was too low, so I cut the tube close to the top and made an extension out of some Uni-Strut I had laying around and it was (finally), Perfect!
Trlr_2 1024X768.jpg
At the aft end.
But now I had to fabricate something for the front end of the trailer
Bought a couple of keel roller brackets and bolted them to a 2" X 2" X 14 ga. galvanized steel square tube.
Trlr_9.jpg
Like so:
Trlr_8 1024X768.jpg
Added a 6-inch cleat to facilitate single-handed snap launches and I was finally satisfied with mast storage and operation.
Trlr_1 1024X768.jpg
Until a tough ramp I was unfamiliar with, trashed the comparatively thin Uni-Strut. >:(
So I got some more 2" X 2" X 14 gauge steel square tube and bolted THAT together.
Trlr_3 1024X768.jpg
All those progressive off-sets may look Dumb, but it really facilitates mast raising.
Look closely at the two holes in the top of the mast, where the Windex gets screwed on.
I can roll the mast forward on the two fore and aft mast stand rollers, then stand on the transom and quite easily, screw the Windex on.
Then I slide the mast all the way aft, until the mast end is aligned with the mast step plate.
Prior to this, for about 30 years I had to physically lift the mast close to the mid-point and precariously carry it across the deck, while trying not to stumble on deck hatches, mast steps, cabin tops, hand rails, and coamings, etc.
Very cumbersome.
This is MUCH easier!! ;D
So really all you'd need is 2) pair of keel roller brackets, 2) vee rollers, two lengths of 2" X 2" X 14 ga. galvanized steel square tube and 2) 2" X 7" square U-bolts, nuts, and shackles for the winch stand.
Well, that and some hefty right angle brackets and bolts, to use as pintles.
But all in all, not a difficult DIY project.
Hope this helps,
Charles Brennan
I currently have the original(?) setup on my 5.5, and have been thinking along the same lines as your mast crutches, but hadn't considered a front roller. I'm considering making my front crutch vertical and attached to the winch stand at their intersection point, with a couple of braces lower down to act as steps in an improvised ladder, but I'm not sure that it's a practical idea. I'll have to consider it further when I get other things out of the way.
Some questions: what are the vertical distances between the top of your front roller and the foredeck, and the distance between the rear roller and the top gudgeon? Your pictures show enough headroom that I shouldn't be hitting my head when going below while on the road or doing maintenance. With the added height from the keel, I'll have to watch my overall height, but I don't go into McDonalds drive thrus anyway.
One of my chores is fixing the reported leak in the cockpit drain. I was told that there is a plastic tube between the fittings of the inner and outer hull that is the likely culprit. Any thoughts?
Après Vous, As you can see from the pic, the mast is only around 6 - 8 inches above the bow pulpit, so around 2-2½ feet, above the fore deck.
20250621_114022 1024X768.jpg
Not sure of the roller-to-upper gudgeon spacing but would estimate it as around 4 or 5 feet.
20250621_114025 1024X768.jpg
For exact measurements, you'd have to ask the new owners! ;D
I suppose you COULD hit your head going below, :P but I have never had a problem, since I just lean to one side of the mast or the other, to enter the cabin. Standing down in the cabin, your head doesn't reach the mast at all.
As to your last question, my cockpit seats don't have side drains. The cockpit drain goes down into a molded fiberglass "tube" mounted on the swing keel trunk.
1374519266.jpg
That homely hunk of fiberglass saved my life, once.
Hope this helps,
Charles Brennan
Oops. Forgot that you'd sold the her.
Quote from: Charles Brennan on Jun 27, 2025, 08:47 PMThat homely hunk of fiberglass saved my life, once
Your most harrowing story, in my opinion!