I know people often do this to make sure the cotter pins don't work their way out and/or to protect people and sails from getting snagged.
A mast came down on a Flying Scott on the 4th. That boat had adjusters on it rather than turnbuckles and unfortunately split rings instead of cotter pins. It was taped but the tape was old and disintegrating. The split ring came out.
No one was hurt and nothing was damaged but it could have been a lot worse.
I've never taped them, just don't see any reason to. I bend the cotter pin ends in such a way that nothing ever snags, and I can see at a glance that everything is in place and hasn't loosened. One of the first things I did after getting Rum Line was to go over all the rigging, replacing every split ring with a cotter pin.
I had to come back to this thread because yesterday while sailing I found my quick release pin nearly worked out of my quick release shroud lever on one side. :o :o :o
I had learned this lesson one time before when the pin came all the way out of one of my shroud levers on my P15 and created A LOT of problems getting back to my dock. At that time I replaced the quick pins with regular pins and split rings. However, there was a small debate over this between people like Jack NC Mountains and Bill Porter saying they absolutely trust quick release pins in levers because the only force that SHOULD be be working on them is shear, and that should never in any way cause them to come loose. So on the new to me P165 I started using the quick pins again.
But Tim and Tom, are you saying you don't really even trust split rings for this application and prefer cotter pins? Same for the forestay, I assume? Thanks, Frank
I trust these:
51a9bUe1ZsL._AC_SL1001_.jpg
more than these:
20035-ring-ding-1__19812.jpg
But I think cotter pins are better. I saw an interesting YouTube video done by a rigger that claims a 15° bend in one of the legs is all you need and is better than bending them all the way back. I'm skeptical :). I'll post it later if I find it.
I was thinking about how often you can bend those 316 SS cotter pins before you have to throw them away. Maybe just consider them consumables?
Quote from: Quantico Frank on Jul 11, 2023, 05:19 PMI was thinking about how often you can bend those 316 SS cotter pins before you have to throw them away. Maybe just consider them consumables?
I found the video I mentioned before and the guy tested that very thing, - though I think most people consider them single use.
This guy is in favor of the 15° bend vs complete wrap because it doesn't fatigue the metal as much. If you were going to try to reuse a pin a bunch of times that would matter, but if you use them only once I don't think it does.
Take it for what it's worth.
To me, that 15 degree bend screams "SNAG ME!" There's no way I would ever do that.
Frank, are you talking about a quick release push pin to lock the lever closed? If that does come out, the lever should still stay closed, unless the little release tab gets pushed in. At least that's how mine is. Even if it opens, at least the mast isn't coming down. The only quick pins I trust are the push button ones like this. They will not come out unless the button gets fully depressed, as long as the correct size is used for the hole.
102665.jpg
Quote from: Riggerdood on Jul 11, 2023, 09:32 PMTo me, that 15 degree bend screams "SNAG ME!" There's no way I would ever do that.
Frank, are you talking about a quick release push pin to lock the lever closed? If that does come out, the lever should still stay closed, unless the little release tab gets pushed in. At least that's how mine is. Even if it opens, at least the mast isn't coming down. The only quick pins I trust are the push button ones like this. They will not come out unless the button gets fully depressed, as long as the correct size is used for the hole.
102665.jpg
Tim, I have never seen nor heard of those types of pins before, but they seem an ideal solution for a couple of reasons, and I am definitely going get my hands on some of them. Thanks for pointing them out to me! It's great to know some dood who is also a rigger! ;)
I found that with the stresses on the standing rigging my levers will open once the pin comes out as the one did on my P15. It makes sense especially if you consider that those stresses were enough to loosen the pin in the first place. True, my mast didn't come down, but in a blow (when these things happen) and when you're single handed, it makes you worry seriously about the rest of your rig. I had a full head of hair before that one!
Quote from: tjspiel on Jul 11, 2023, 05:52 PMQuote from: Quantico Frank on Jul 11, 2023, 05:19 PMI was thinking about how often you can bend those 316 SS cotter pins before you have to throw them away. Maybe just consider them consumables?
This guy is in favor of the 15° bend vs complete wrap because it doesn't fatigue the metal as much. If you were going to try to reuse a pin a bunch of times that would matter, but if you use them only once I don't think it does.
Take it for what it's worth.
I think that's pretty useful hip pocket info, Tom, to keep in mind for all those places where cotter pins make sense to use.
IMO quick release pins are dangerous on standing rigs ... they are easily released and that really isn't what one wants for a critical part to keeping the mast up. I've never used them for this exact reason.
FWIW - I had the little ball bearing fall out of a quick release pin securing the anchor on my power boat. For that reason I don't use them any more.
I used a "quick pin" to hasten setting up my forestay, and yep, it fell out while sailing. Long story (wrote an article about it for SCA) but quick action by my friend kept the mast up long enough to replace the pin. I don't trust them, obviously. I bend the cotter pins with the legs spread to about a 40-45 degree angle between them, and that seems to work. I never reuse pins and inspect the rigging every outing. Never had split rings work loose. I use the "open" rings as in the second picture posted by Tom. Unless you are getting snags, there is no reason to tape them.
Quote from: Brian N. on Jul 12, 2023, 09:45 AMI used a "quick pin" to hasten setting up my forestay, and yep, it fell out while sailing. Long story (wrote an article about it for SCA) but quick action by my friend kept the mast up long enough to replace the pin. I don't trust them, obviously. I bend the cotter pins with the legs spread to about a 40-45 degree angle between them, and that seems to work. I never reuse pins and inspect the rigging every outing. Never had split rings work loose. I use the "open" rings as in the second picture posted by Tom. Unless you are getting snags, there is no reason to tape them.
It was the open style or "ring ding" that worked loose on the Flying Scott. Happened to a different Flying Scott last year. Maybe there's something about Scotts that leads to more movement in the rigging.
I got some split rings from e-rigging that look like this:
IMG_3591.jpeg
Maybe I'm deluding myself, but look less likely to work loose.
Gosh, Fellas, I've been using this method for over 40 years:
Quick_Pin.JPG
How many seconds, have I got LEFT, before it pops out, sailing?!?!? :o
Never had a failure.
My forestay is the only part of my standing rigging that has to be disconnected to raise and lower the mast.
As seen by the pic, I also use it to secure the forestay turnbuckle to the trailer's forward mast support for making it road-ready. So it is not only used all the while that I am out sailing, but all the while that I am out trailering.
Never had the detent ball fall out, but I have had to hit it with WD-40 several times over the years.
To me, the real key to using a Quick-Pin, is to be scrupulous about diameter and length on the shaft of the Quick-Pin, to ensure a snug fit.
The first one I got (in the '70's) was a 1/32" smaller than the turnbuckle hole and made me queasy about using it. And while it never failed on me the 6 months or so I used it, I was much happier when I finally found the right one.
In terms of wear and tear, ironically, it is the turnbuckle I've had to replace twice. Holes "ovaled" and I no longer trusted it, because I just didn't get that same tight "feel" on the Quick-Pin, once the turnbuckle had gotten worn.
One guy's opinion,
Charles Brennan
Hi Charles -
Thanks for wading in and sharing your experience way over here on the Precision sub-forum. :)
Dan
"How many seconds, have I got LEFT, before it pops out, sailing?!?!? :o "
:)
The push-button ones are less worrisome than the ones that can be pulled right out. The latter I've definitely had pop out on their own (wasn't used on standing rigging).
Quote from: Quantico Frank on Jul 12, 2023, 06:38 AMTim, I have never seen nor heard of those types of pins before, but they seem an ideal solution for a couple of reasons, and I am definitely going get my hands on some of them. Thanks for pointing them out to me! It's great to know some dood who is also a rigger! ;)
I found that with the stresses on the standing rigging my levers will open once the pin comes out as the one did on my P15. It makes sense especially if you consider that those stresses were enough to loosen the pin in the first place. True, my mast didn't come down, but in a blow (when these things happen) and when you're single handed, it makes you worry seriously about the rest of your rig. I had a full head of hair before that one!
No prob Frank. Obviously, others disagree with their effectiveness, and that's OK, your mileage may vary as well. If you're really worried about the levers coming open, a clevis pin and cotter pin are still the best way to go. 'Fraid I can't help you with the hair thing. ;~P
Quote from: DBthal on Jul 12, 2023, 09:37 AMFWIW - I had the little ball bearing fall out of a quick release pin securing the anchor on my power boat. For that reason I don't use them any more.
Seems to me that the odds of that happening are probably about the same as the odds of a circlip working loose?
Quote from: Riggerdood on Jul 12, 2023, 08:02 PMIf you're really worried about the levers coming open, a clevis pin and cotter pin are still the best way to go.
Tim, that is the solution I've landed on at this point. I'm tired of these quick pins which I've truly come to believe are not fans of mine. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, well.... At least there won't be a third time. And I will be curling them all the way back. Thanks, everyone for your input!
Initially expensive, but I love the "C.S. Johnson Hook and Loop Locking Wrap Pin" sold at Defender Marine. Pin the turnbuckle, and wrap around with the Velcro. Reusable many, many times. Perfect for trailer sailing or frequent tuning of standing rigging. I discovered them when an incomplete set came with my used Mariner. When I saw it in action, I realized what a great idea it was. I have since ordered 2 more pairs to fit the other 2 turnbuckles. No more busted finger nails or searching for a replacement cotter pin. Unable to post a picture.
Fred W
Stuart Mariner 19 #4133 Sweet P
Yeopim Creek, Albemarle Sound, NC
Quote from: pgandw on Jul 17, 2023, 08:48 AMInitially expensive, but I love the "C.S. Johnson Hook and Loop Locking Wrap Pin" sold at Defender Marine.
I agree, they are great. I have a turnbuckle on my forestay and have used one of those for several years. With the quick release levers on my shrouds I never have to adjust that turnbuckle.
So this is the the solution I finally, finally ended up with. It's easier than bending into loops cotter pins (which aren't cheap-- at least not from WM). What I'm using are the 304 SS zip ties since what I'm using them for is temporary, but you can also buy 316 SS. I've also used them to lock the boat strap hooks onto the trailer. You just take them off with a pair of tin snips.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072WC1MXT?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
71xO9zlZeOL._AC_SL1480_.jpg
IMG_0231.jpg [attach id=2077]71xO9zlZeOL._AC_SL1480_.jpg
Neat solution Frank! Too bad they're not reusable.