Since this is the most active part of the TSBB, I thought I'd pose my question here. I don't have a Precision (shame on me - ha!), but I figured your opinions and experience would still be valuable.
I sail a Hunter 18.5. If you're not familiar, she has a wing keel and goes 1650 lbs dry. I need a new outboard. Money is an issue. I'm on the verge of selling the boat (for several reasons), but if I can get a motor for a reasonable price, I'll keep her. She had a Yamaha 4hp. That motor got crushed (don't ask me how). Looks like most 4hp motors are going for $1400-1800. A Tohatsu goes for $12 and change from the manufacturer but shipping adds about $250. I stopped at Bass Pro and I can get a Mercury 4hp for just under $1600 taxes incl.
I have found a lightly used 2017 Yamaha 4hp for $1000. I'm guessing it's been sitting and is likely gooped up.
I'm considering a Honda 2.3. Dave Scobie outfitted his Sage 17 with them. They're about 300 lbs lighter than the Hunter. The 2.3 costs about a grand. Air-cooled (I like that). No reverse but I guess I could live with that. I sail almost exclusively on inland lakes in light air.
Thoughts, opinions, suggestions?
In his book Dave Gerr recommends about 2HP for every thousand pounds. The Honda 2.3 might get you off the dock, but probably not enough to push the boat effectively in other conditions. I would investigate the 4 HP 2017 Yamaha, and start it up. Also call around the local boat yards and see if they have something used or an older model that has not sold. Can you post a "wanted" sign on the bulletin board of any local yacht clubs? Good luck.
Quote from: Captain Kidd on Jul 11, 2023, 09:09 AMI'm considering a Honda 2.3. Dave Scobie outfitted his Sage 17 with them. They're about 300 lbs lighter than the Hunter. The 2.3 costs about a grand. Air-cooled (I like that). No reverse but I guess I could live with that. I sail almost exclusively on inland lakes in light air.
The Honda 2/2.3 will be fine for your use. Honda 2/2.3 push around M17s no problem, weight similar to your boat, for toodling around in light duty conditions.
Aside from no reverse, the Honda is a great engine. It took a little practice to learn to "feather" the clutch and it pushes my P165 in all conditions. But the P165 is a significantly lighter boat, even loaded. On the other hand, if all you are doing is motoring off a dock or mooring, and considering the Hunter's profile you might be OK. I would still go bigger if possible. BTW, the long shaft is needed.
Most OBs in this range don't have a reverse (you spin it 180º), but be aware that the Honda has a centrifugal clutch, no neutral. When you start cold with it throttled up it will be in gear and off you go. Ready or not. Once the motor warms up a bit you can decrease the throttle enough so the clutch is disengaged.
I was dry sailing when I used mine, and since it was air cooled I would start it on the trailer and warm it up for a couple of minutes before I launched without a messing with water for cooling. Once launched, I could start the still-warm motor with the throttle at idle.
Not hard to get used to, but some really find it annoying.
Quote from: Bruce Mason on Jul 11, 2023, 11:30 AMMost OBs in this range don't have a reverse (you spin it 180º), but be aware that the Honda has a centrifugal clutch, no neutral. When you start cold with it throttled up it will be in gear and off you go. Ready or not. Once the motor warms up a bit you can decrease the throttle enough so the clutch is disengaged.
I was dry sailing when I used mine, and since it was air cooled I would start it on the trailer and warm it up for a couple of minutes before I launched without a messing with water for cooling. Once launched, I could start the still-warm motor with the throttle at idle.
Not hard to get used to, but some really find it annoying.
When properly adjusted, the clutch should not engage at the "Start" throttle setting. Mine doesn't anyway. I do find the H2 to be pretty sensitive to choke position when cold vs. warm.
Suzuki 2.5 LS. It is the lightest outboard that has F & N, still have to spin for reverse. Usually a couple hundred $ less than the others. I also am searching for a smaller outboard, currently have a Tohatsu 3.5LS on a P165 and it weighs 43 lbs, a little to much for good hull balance while single handing. I did see a Honda 2.3 pushing a J 22 at way above no wake speed, I was impressed. I may go the Honda route, no more replacing impellers. I think all of the newer small 4 stroke motors are very sensitive and subject to flooding, each has their own quirks that you must adhere to while starting. I have found 100's of used motors on Face Book market place. Good luck.
Quote from: Riggerdood on Jul 11, 2023, 12:19 PMWhen properly adjusted, the clutch should not engage at the "Start" throttle setting. Mine doesn't anyway. I do find the H2 to be pretty sensitive to choke position when cold vs. warm.
My H2 was like that from the day I took delivery from the dealer, and continued after every dealer service since then. It was my daily driver from 2010 to 2014, but I use it only very occasionally now having replaced it with a Lehr 2.5 in 2015, and most recently a Spirit 1.0 in 2019. Hopefully they have addressed the problem, but in the past it was a well-known issue. Worth checking out, especially if you're buying used.
Quote from: eaglecreeksailor22 on Jul 11, 2023, 01:59 PMI did see a Honda 2.3 pushing a J 22 at way above no wake speed, I was impressed. I may go the Honda route, no more replacing impellers.
Sounds good! The J22 actually displaces more than the Hunter. Might be a little more slippery, but still....
Interesting developement: I just got a lead on a new Honda 2.3 for a "used" price. I thinking I'm going to spring for it. Might leave me a little vulnerable if I take the boat to bigger waters, but in 24 years I've only done that 4 times; otherwise just lake sailing.
Quote from: eaglecreeksailor22 on Jul 11, 2023, 01:59 PMSuzuki 2.5 LS. It is the lightest outboard that has F & N, still have to spin for reverse.
+1 on the Suzuki-- love mine. Might want to go up one in size.
Had a beautiful sail in 10 knots today until the wind shut down when I was 8 miles from home in the open ocean.
The Suzuki 2.5 got me home.... Quiet & reliable, but probably a shorter life in salt water than the air cooled Honda.
Dan
P.S. No jib sheet snags today.
Quote from: Bruce Mason on Jul 11, 2023, 02:10 PMQuote from: Riggerdood on Jul 11, 2023, 12:19 PMWhen properly adjusted, the clutch should not engage at the "Start" throttle setting. Mine doesn't anyway. I do find the H2 to be pretty sensitive to choke position when cold vs. warm.
My H2 was like that from the day I took delivery from the dealer, and continued after every dealer service since then. It was my daily driver from 2010 to 2014, but I use it only very occasionally now having replaced it with a Lehr 2.5 in 2015, and most recently a Spirit 1.0 in 2019. Hopefully they have addressed the problem, but in the past it was a well-known issue. Worth checking out, especially if you're buying used.
I bought mine used, so it might have been adjusted that way by the PO. Dunno.
One thing to add about the H2 is that even though it is air cooled, the manual suggests running it in a bucket of fresh water after saltwater use, since there are still exhaust cooling passages under the cav plate that should be rinsed out.
Just talked to the guy selling the Honda 2.3, an older gentleman who has a lot of time on the water including liveaboard. It's new out of the box - just doesn't want to bother reboxing and returning so selling at a discount. He did start the motor. He said the prop did not turn at idle speed. Good news. I told him I liked the fact that it is air-cooled and can be started without a bucket of water. He said that's the reason he wanted the Honda howbeit he wanted a short shaft and ordered long by mistake.
I believe that is the best option for me. I only sail a few times a year. Being able to start the motor quickly and easily on a regular basis as Dave Scobie suggests will be much easier for me.
Gonna see the guy tomorrow.
Quote from: Captain Kidd on Jul 12, 2023, 12:19 PMJust talked to the guy selling the Honda 2.3, an older gentleman who has a lot of time on the water including liveaboard. It's new out of the box - just doesn't want to bother reboxing and returning so selling at a discount. He did start the motor. He said the prop did not turn at idle speed. Good news. I told him I liked the fact that it is air-cooled and can be started without a bucket of water. He said that's the reason he wanted the Honda howbeit he wanted a short shaft and ordered long by mistake.
I believe that is the best option for me. I only sail a few times a year. Being able to start the motor quickly and easily on a regular basis as Dave Scobie suggests will be much easier for me.
Gonna see the guy tomorrow.
Sounds promising. Good luck !
One thing I can say about the Honda is it is very easy to start, usually on the first or second pull. Something to be aware of, in my experience, is the engine is very sensitive to overfilling the oil, even a little bit. The engine will cut out a low idle speed. Remove a few milliliters and then she runs great. Got that tip from Dave Edwards who has not posted for a very long time. I use a 250mL beaker to measure out the oil.
Quote from: Brian N. on Jul 12, 2023, 09:01 PMOne thing I can say about the Honda is it is very easy to start, usually on the first or second pull. Something to be aware of, in my experience, is the engine is very sensitive to overfilling the oil, even a little bit. The engine will cut out a low idle speed. Remove a few milliliters and then she runs great. Got that tip from Dave Edwards who has not posted for a very long time. I use a 250mL beaker to measure out the oil.
Good point Brian, and the other thing is that the oil level "sighting window" can be a bit difficult to read. The outboard needs to be perfectly vertical and level to get a good reading.
A 2.3 Honda or 2.5 Yamaha will work just fine.
We ran a 2.3 on our Montgomery 15 and hardly ever reved it past idle.
Now we have a 2.5 on our Precision 18, same thing.
Both are very lightweight, don't need an external gas tank, and have more than adequate power.
What's hard to get used to is no reverse lever.
For reverse, you spin the engine 180, flip the tiller and steer while also holding the rudder from flopping.
That can be a clumsy affair when docking, especially if you have stern rail or seat interference.
Just remember to throttle down all the way BEFORE you spin the motor around (don't ask how I know :-[ )
Well, I did it: bought that brand new, never touched the water Honda 2.3 long shaft. An older fellow, boat builder, 30 year liveaboard bought it and discovered it was too long for the boat he was putting it on. Didn't want to bother with the headache of reshipping so I got it for a "used price" and tax free! Found it on Market Place.
Thanks for all the advice and tips! I'll let you know how it works out.
Hopefully the Honda will meet your needs, I've been very satisfied for many years. I use mine just to get to and from Long Island Sound, 10 minutes each way, so it gets very little use. I find that changing the oil once a year is enough (it is fairly clean), the lower unit oil every other year along with the spark plug. Winter storage is easy, just fill the tank with gas treated with stabilizer and that's it. I store it in the shed. I do start the engine once or twice during the winter on a mild day (remember its air cooled). Let it run 30 seconds at "idle" then turn the throttle down to starve off the gas until it stops. The new engine's clutch may take a few outings to break in. The engine is a bit loud, but not to the point of a large outboard.
For the P165 rarely do I go above 3/4 throttle, even in wind, waves, current or fully loaded. A full tank will last 40 minutes or so, depending upon speed. Any other questions, please ask. Enjoy your sailing.
That's what my 2010 owner's manual says. IMO, they are being cautious for liability purposes. Here's an excerpt from a post I made on the Picnic Cat Group forum on 8/4/14, in response to the concern of other Honda owners about the practice. Typically, I only ran the motor dry to warm it up enough to be able to throttle down and disengage the centrifugal clutch. If I wanted to run it longer, I would use a tank filled with water.
"I certainly agree, Andre. If it's hot, shut her down.
While enjoying a nice Belgian-style ale and tending the chicken thighs in the smoker last night, I had a few minutes to do a test. The intent was to advance the discussion with some quantified results, as well as confirm that I wasn't just blowing smoke! The Honda was on a stand, the closest water was a puddle in the driveway from the day's showers. The ambient air temp was about 70º, and all exterior surfaces of the vertical casing were at ambient temp. All temps are in ºF.
The motor hadn't been run for days, so I throttled up and it started after a couple of pulls. Within a few seconds I was able to close the choke and well within 10 seconds I was able to throttle back to idle so the prop would stop. Then it was just stand back and monitor the temperature with an IR thermometer, while enjoying my ale. At three minutes I closed the gas line to run the carb dry, my usual shut down procedure. At eight minutes the engine ran out of gas and I closed the gas cap vent.
Temperatures in three areas were of interest. The lower unit (lower end?) steadied out at about 76º. The warmest spot on the vertical casing that might ever be expected to see water in normal operation was right above the higher cavitation plate (I have a long shaft); that reached about 92º. The hottest spot was, not surprisingly, on the plastic guard right below the case swivel, where Honda has the warning label about hot surfaces. Here the temp reached 104º. All maximum temperatures where reached about 6 minutes into the test.
At no point did I feel there was any risk of damage, but if Honda asks: "No sir, I would never do such a thing."
Anon
Thanks, Bruce for the reply. I was trying to edit my post and reduce the size of the pics and deleted it. Here it is again for other input.
Original Post:
My new motor!
IMG_0119reduced.jpg
Here's a question. The owner's manual says to not run it unless in water. Not sure I get this.? One reason I bought this one was so that I could run it regularly without having to put it in water.
IMG_0116reduced.jpg
Does this mean I can't run in in air for a few minutes on a regular basis to keep the fuel in the carb fresh?
On a similar note: there is a drain plug to empty the carb. It says to drain the carb if the motor will be run
infrequently. Maybe this is the solution to keeping the carb clean and gas fresh.
My engine is 2006 and the owners manual does not have that picture or warning. Perhaps it was added when they changed it to the 2.3 HP from the 2.0 (actually same exact engine). I've never let it run out of water for any extended time however, one or two minutes at most. Also, I only drain the gas after the winter, before I start it up for the season, and I use a small hand pump and hose. Between uses, letting the engine starve for gas and stop seems to work (so far for 15 years). I think using only treated gas is a big plus to not having any problems.
I think there are two reasons the lawyers added the 'don't run out of water' comment -
- Worry about someone burning themselves in a hot lower shaft (aka warmed by exhaust)
- Worry that someone will get themselves hit by a spinning prop.
A legitimate mechanical worry is over-revving the motor as there is no resistance against the prop.
I am new here but my thought is that there are "Air cooled motors" and "Water cooled motors". I would think Honda is indicating the their motor needs water to run properly. I like the drain plug on the carburetor it keeps your bilge cleaner than spilling gas in it. I also used to run my motor gas dry before putting it away (pre drain days) never had a motor problem. The reason that people do this is because of the ethanol gas issue and clogged ports etc. I have been using Seafoam in all my motors on boats, yard stuff lawn mowers etc. It is amazing how much better everything works. My opinion for your solution is : Use Seafoam drain the carb and put the motor away. If you leave it on the transom do nothing. Storing for the winter I would do more prep.
Welcome Dave to the Precision Forum :) . I have been using gas stabilizer in all my small engines for many years and very satisfied. During the winter, on a mild day, I'll start my outboard (Honda 2HP) and this routine has kept it running well for many years.
When I asked a similar question on another forum years ago, someone told me the big issue is current. If you are sailing in a river or tide water--or both--you need a motor powerful enough to move you against typical currents. If the main concern is getting home on a windless lake, you can get away with a small motor. Or even a pair of oars.
Quote from: Captain Kidd on Jul 11, 2023, 09:09 AMSince this is the most active part of the TSBB, I thought I'd pose my question here. I don't have a Precision (shame on me - ha!), but I figured your opinions and experience would still be valuable.
I sail a Hunter 18.5. If you're not familiar, she has a wing keel and goes 1650 lbs dry. I need a new outboard. Money is an issue. I'm on the verge of selling the boat (for several reasons), but if I can get a motor for a reasonable price, I'll keep her. She had a Yamaha 4hp. That motor got crushed (don't ask me how). Looks like most 4hp motors are going for $1400-1800. A Tohatsu goes for $12 and change from the manufacturer but shipping adds about $250. I stopped at Bass Pro and I can get a Mercury 4hp for just under $1600 taxes incl.
I have found a lightly used 2017 Yamaha 4hp for $1000. I'm guessing it's been sitting and is likely gooped up.
I'm considering a Honda 2.3. Dave Scobie outfitted his Sage 17 with them. They're about 300 lbs lighter than the Hunter. The 2.3 costs about a grand. Air-cooled (I like that). No reverse but I guess I could live with that. I sail almost exclusively on inland lakes in light air.
Thoughts, opinions, suggestions?
How's the Hunter 18.5 treating you? I've seen them for sale here locally several times and honestly could easily have ended up with one instead of the P165 if I just had a higher towing capacity car like an Outback.
I'd definitely feel better being out on the ocean in the Hunter then the Precision which has mostly kept me limited to local lakes.
Quote from: Straander on Aug 02, 2023, 08:24 PMHow's the Hunter 18.5 treating you? I've seen them for sale here locally several times and honestly could easily have ended up with one instead of the P165 if I just had a higher towing capacity car like an Outback.
I'd definitely feel better being out on the ocean in the Hunter then the Precision which has mostly kept me limited to local lakes.
A few thoughts come to mind.
First - I like my 18.5. I can step the mast with no mechanical advantage. She is relatively easy to launch and retrieve. It is comfortable for two sleeping aboard. As far as sailing characteristics, I have limited experience to compare her to. I have only sailed 3 different pocket cruisers all of which I owned. My favorite of the three is the Macgregor 26S, the third being a Kells 23 fixed shallow draft keel.
Second - as far as going to the ocean, how about the guy who sailed his Montgomery 15 to Hawaii? http://msog.org/yarns/hawaii15.cfm. Basically the same class boat as the 165. Most boats will outperform their captain!
Third - If I were to do a lot of coastal sailing, I believe I would want a boat with positive flotation. the 18.5 doesn't have it. I guess it could be added. The Mac did. A very comforting thought! BTW the Mac weighed no more than the 18.5 due to her water ballast, so towing was about the same. I tow my boats with a '08 Kia Sorento.
I like the 18.5 and plan to keep it now that I have a new motor. I'm pushing 70 years of age, so we'll have to see how I hold up physically. Goes for my wife too. Seems "arthur" is trying to take up residence in both of us. I like including her and she'll get on the Hunter before getting on my 16' wooden dinghy.
I'm looking forward to the fall sailing season!