I seem to remember you guys had some discussion in the past about sail shape and trim. I am new enough to sailing that I am still sorting a lot of this out.
I'll start with two things I have noticed on my P23. The first is getting the mainsail up all the way. I get to the point where my main halyard cannot pull the sail up any further (completely tight), but the luff of the main is a bit baggy. I don't see any way to crank down (downhaul) the sail. Are my sails just old and stretched or am I overlooking something? The foot of the sail seems pretty tight so I think the outhaul is good.
Second, yesterday, I reefed for the first time. I had a rough idea of what I wanted to do, but had never done it, so just kind of figured it out. I got the ring on the luff hooked on the reefing hook (gooseneck bolt was sort of in the way; too long, I'll shorten it and put the head of the bolt on the hook side). Then I tied off the two reefing lines on the sail. At this point it still looked like a mess, so I realized I needed to tie off the ring on the leech of the sail. The foot was still sloppy, so I then noticed that I had not addressed the issue of outhaul. I untied the outhaul from the actual foot of the sail and tied it to the reefing ring on the leech and hauled it out. At this point, it looked like a sail again. It was a bit gusty so I sailed her like this with just a partial jib rolled out and she performed fairly well. We were able to make some way up the shoreline against wind, tide and current.
I'll take any tips you all have on either of these.
Thanks!
Jim
I'm all ears on this one too, Jim. I've never been happy with the shape of my sail when reefed, and I'm wondering if I should be "outhauling" from the last reef point as well?
Hopefully someone more familiar with P-23s will chime in but I will give you my 2 cents.
Is the gooseneck on the P-23 in a fixed position? On the P-18 it can slide up and down in the track. On my boom, there's a line on the bottom and a horn cleat below it near the base of the mast can be used to pull the boom down and tighten the luff.
Other boats use a "Cunningham". There will be a cringle between the tack of the sail and the first reefing cringle or ring. There are various ways to set these up but basically a line runs through that cringle and down to a cleat somewhere that allows you to pull the luff tighter (or loosen it).
If your sail is pretty old, there's a good possibility that the luff rope has shrunk. It can be relaxed but there is some hand sewing involved. I did that with my original mainsail and it did make a difference.
The way you reefed seems right for a small boat. But I would bet your boom has some "jiffy reefing" hardware installed for at least the leech of the sail so you don't have to re-attach the outhaul.
On the P-18, it's pretty simple. There's an eye on one side of the boom near the back. A line is tied to that, run up through the reefing cringle on the leech of the sail and back down to a block on the other side of the boom. Then the line runs forward to horn cleat on that same side of the boom. You need enough slack in that line so that you can fully raise the sail and still have enough to cleat.
So your procedure would be the same except that the leech is a lot easier. Just pull that line tight after lowering the sail sufficiently and that will bring that reefing cringle down and hold it back.
Thanks Tom, I hit the road for a stretch tomorrow and won't be down to the boat for a few days. I'll have a look at all those things next time I get to look at her.
Jim
Tom pretty much nailed it Jim, but if you could get some pics of both of these issues it would help. For the reefing, you pretty much have it correct, except that the ties would be the last step. The leech reef line should be such that it pulls the leech reef cringle down and back equally, as a tight "reefed foot" is desirable. You should not have to use the outhaul to achieve this. Were you able to achieve a tight luff when reefed? If so, then it sounds like something is keeping the head from going up all the way to the masthead, and/or the other possible issues Tom describes.
Tom and Tim both addressed the reefing issue well. I'll give you my version: Ease the main sheet and boom vang. Lower the main sail and engage the reefing hook through the luff cringle approximately 1/3 the way down. The reefing hook should be on the starboard side with the hook angled aft. A line is tied off on an eye strap on the port side of the boom, aft. The line runs through a cringle to starboard then around a block. The line is lead aft to a horn cleat on the boom, close to the goose neck. Snug it up, then use sail ties through the reefing points on your sail to gather up the excess. My reefing line is always rove and ready to go.
As for raising the main, make sure the mainsheet is eased plenty and no vang. Head to wind. The main should be able to be raised to the top. Slip the tail of the luff into the mast grove, then lower it in. There should be a small line tied to a cringle in the sail at the tack - this is your down haul which should tie off at a cleat on the mast base. Unless your sail is not cut right, or badly misshapen, you should be able to really harden the luff using the halyard.
After you do it a couple of times, it goes smoothly
Quote from: Brian N. on Jul 23, 2023, 11:04 PM<snip> The line is lead aft to a horn cleat on the boom, close to the goose neck. <snip>
Um, I do believe you meant led *forward* Brian? Just for clarity, not nit picking I promise! ;D
Good catch Tim! But some may say my sailing is backwards :-[
Many great suggestions here. In the recent Rolex Fastnet race, you might see some good visuals from expert sailors. Because of high winds, a majority of boats have reefed sails. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOg6L1afTsw. What I think is obvious is how tightly the main sail is attached to the boom. On my P165, I've found that if the sail shape doesn't look quite right, that using an extra line or two to tie things down will help. I have a couple short pieces of spare line stuck in a pants pocket for reefing or other purposes.
Quote from: Brian N. on Jul 24, 2023, 10:46 PMGood catch Tim! But some may say my sailing is backwards :-[
Just hopefully not upside down! <8~O
When I first learned to sail I was told it is important to keep the big stick pointing up, forward was the pointy end of the boat and you steer from the back by pushing another stick ;D
Re: Getting the main luff tight.
The Rolly Tasker sails for the P21 have no Cunningham cringle. When I had new sails built, I made sure they included one.
Re: Reef points
The comment about doing the ties on the sail last is really important. They aren't very strong, just intended to gather up the slack fabric. They are only used when the sail is tied down at tack and clew. The sail might rip if all the load comes on the intermediate ties.
The basics of reefing have been covered. I like to hove-to on starboard tack when I reef. Sailing on port tack, I tack to starboard and do not uncleat the jib, so that it is backwinded. I let the main out to port, and then push the tiller over to port. If the boat is going too fast, she may round up and tack over to starboard again, so watch this. Once everything settles down, you will start making way downwind in a very controlled scalloping fashion, as the rudder heads the boat up, but then the backwinded jib blows it off the wind, where she starts making headway again only to have the rudder turn her back up to the wind all over again.
Now that everything is settled down and there isn't any pressure in the main, I can go to the mast, slack the halyard and hook the reefing point to the reef hook. If you don't already have it set up, 2 welded stainless rings connecting on either side of the reef cringle by sewed webbing makes it FAR easier to hook the starboard ring onto the reef hook. Trying to get the cringle itself onto the small hook is not fun. Then take up the halyard again, so your luff is tight. As noted, turn aft to the leech reef line and pull it on. You'll note that the eye strap you tie the end of the line too, and the cheek block on starboard side of end of the boom are both behind where the reef cringle would lie on the boom. This is so that the line pulls the sail down and back. You can adjust where you cleat this line when the reef is pulled in, because lowering the sail lessens the heeling moment, and you may need some draft in the foot of the sail for power pushing through waves, as opposed to have a tight foot to depower.
At this point, with just the first reef, or a sail with a single deep reef, you may be ok. There won't be that much excess sail hanging down. If you put in your second reef doing this, you may want to tie up the excess. That is what the lines through the middle of the reef line are for, "nettles." These lines should not be tied tight. If you have a loose-footed main, you shouldn't even tie these around the boom, just around the loose sail. The reason is that the sail is completely held by the tack and clew reef points (see how they are reinforced with extra patches of sail cloth?) The nettles down the middle have maybe 1 layer of reinforcement. If the tack or clew reef points were to let go, the nettles could tear right down the sail.
Just yesterday we had 15 knot or higher winds, and coming out into the main body of the lake I saw it was WAY windier than when I went off on an expedition to the dam and back. While I might have been able to beat to windward back home, I could tell it was going to be on the edge of being overpowered, so I hove-to (without that much seaway, so I was quick) and tucked in the reef. Turns out I wasn't making leeway that quickly anyway. Also, if it took me 3 minutes to reef, I'd be surprised it was that long. Anyway, I sailed back under control, but the boat felt like she was being held back. Later, the wind dropped some, and I shook the reef out. She was much happier that way.
Howdy guys! Lots of great replies here that have given me food for thought. I have not been able to sail since my first "reefing" sail. I have gotten down to the pier to do some troubleshooting though (both on reefing and electrics).
Going through everyone's suggestions, I have a pretty good idea of how I will go about it in the future. In answer to Tom's P23 questions, I couldn't tell if the gooseneck will adjust downward to tighten the luff. Next time sailing, I will examine this more closely while the sail is up and out of the way. If it is not adjustable, I may try looping a piece of line through the reefing cringle and jury rig a down haul to tighten most of the luff. I did shorten and reverse the bolt that holds the tack down by the gooseneck. I now have the head of the bolt to starboard so it is easier to get the cringle on the hook.
As per Tom and Tim's comments, I need to see if I have a leech reefing line that will pull the foot down and aft. Undoing the outhaul worked, but there's probably a better way.
I'll have to try Brian's "hove-to" technique, especially when I don't have anyone else to motor her into the wind. As you guys have mentioned, finding volunteers to sail is not always easy. My next posts may well be about single handing.
I also like Brian and Talbot's points about the middle reefing lines. I hadn't thought about the potential for over stressing them.
The heat has been limiting sailing and repair opportunities, but it looks like I'll be able to get down to the pier early on Friday to install two new batteries (that'd be another thread) and out for an early Saturday sail.
Sorry I missed the Precision Happy Hour Friday. Sounds like it was a good one. I got the invite. Thanks Tim!
Jim
No problem Jim. Hope you can make the next one.
Question: is there a cleat in or near the mast sailtrack near the base of the mast, a pad eye also in that general area, and does your gooseneck have a ring welded to the bottom? If these items are present, it's almost certain you have an adjustable gooseneck. As I said in my previous post, some pics would go a long way in identifying exactly what you're dealing with. The P-23 I crewed on years ago had a fixed gooseneck, but I don't know if they all do.
Me working the bow in the 2014 Brewers Cup, New Smyrna ICW, FL. The fixed gooseneck is visible here:
BREWERS CUP 2014.jpg
What one person mention about the bolt rope shrinking is a possibility. I released the bolt rope on my 30 year old sails and gained about 8 inches. How old are your sails? When you get a chance measure the luff and see if it has shrunk. Below is a link to Stingy Sailor that explains how to release the bolt rope. It gave me a couple of more years before I finally bought new sails.
https://stingysailor.com/2015/09/12/how-to-breathe-new-life-into-that-baggy-old-sail-2/ (https://stingysailor.com/2015/09/12/how-to-breathe-new-life-into-that-baggy-old-sail-2/)
Quote from: Tom G P 21 on Aug 17, 2023, 07:11 AMWhat one person mention about the bolt rope shrinking is a possibility. I released the bolt rope on my 30 year old sails and gained about 8 inches. How old are your sails? When you get a chance measure the luff and see if it has shrunk. Below is a link to Stingy Sailor that explains how to release the bolt rope. It gave me a couple of more years before I finally bought new sails.
https://stingysailor.com/2015/09/12/how-to-breathe-new-life-into-that-baggy-old-sail-2/ (https://stingysailor.com/2015/09/12/how-to-breathe-new-life-into-that-baggy-old-sail-2/)
You might have pointed that article out to me a few years ago because I used it when I lengthened the bolt rope on my main. I also added a leech line.
I eventually got new sails but like for you, it added a couple of more years to the mainsail I had. Fixing the bolt rope allowed me to get the sail flatter and when reefed the shape actually wasn't too bad.
At the point you are releasing the bolt rope and then sail shape is better reefed all is really lost for sailing well, especially upwind.
Kinda like having a care where you pull into gas station to fill the oil and check the gas.
Quote from: Dave Scobie on Aug 19, 2023, 09:40 AMAt the point you are releasing the bolt rope and then sail shape is better reefed all is really lost for sailing well, especially upwind.
Kinda like having a care where you pull into gas station to fill the oil and check the gas.
Yeah, releasing the bolt rope doesn't make it into a new sail again. I see it more like a knee replacement when you've also got a bad shoulder and your eyesight isn't what it used to be.
That new knee isn't going to bring your 90 mph fastball back, but at least you'll be able to walk to the mound a little easier. :)
In high winds the old sail was like a big bag and the leech would flap noisily in any kind of breeze. So my fixes made it a bit better when there was some wind. And it wasn't as awful when reefed.
Also since it was an old sail I wasn't worried about ruining it with my novice sewing skills. What I learned doing that work helped me convert a newer hank-on jib to one I could use with a furler and I'm pretty happy with how that turned out.
What I *really* wanted was a new sail but my boat budget is limited to mad money so that had to wait for a couple more seasons. I agree that if you're in a position to buy a new sail, fixing the bolt rope on an old one may not make a lot of sense.
Howdy Guys,
I hope my tech inadequacies don't mess it up, but I plan to make the PSHH tonight. I am going to try to get pictures on here from last Saturday's sail. Great steady wind and fairly cool and dry for August. Wind slowed down after about the first hour and a half, but we needed to head in anyway for an afternoon dinner at the neighbor's. Probably the best sail of the summer (only got the boat in the drink in mid July).
You'll see from the photos that I have a fixed gooseneck. I can yank down on my main halyard for all I'm worth (about 215 lbs and a biscuit) and this is the best I can do with the luff. Not sure if this sail has a lot more left even if I tried the bolt rope trick.
Good news is, my wife was admiring the nice new sails on another larger boat sailing near us (nice tight luff and shape, with the sacrificial blue sunbrella material on the roller furler). I may not have too tough a sales (sails) job to talk her into an upgrade. That discussion will be for a different thread. Here are IMG_1253.jpegIMG_1247.jpegIMG_1248.jpegIMG_1254.jpeg the photos if I can make this work. Be talking to you guys soon. 😀
Jim
Hi Jim,
Sorry we missed you at happy hour - please see my reply to your PM.
As to your main luff issue, there is still plenty of hoist available at the top of the mast, so something is preventing you from being able to reach full hoist. Can't really tell from the photos what that might be though?
Yep. I realize now that I had the start time wrong. Happy Hour on the east coast starts earlier. Maybe that's the reason for my bad math 😁!
I have felt all along that my mainsail was not going all the way up. Seems to be 6-8" from the top of the mast. Not sure what I can do about it without lowering the mast and that is quite an ordeal. Getting the mast up and down safely and efficiently is my main obstacle to being a true "trailersailor."
I will try some wiggling and other very scientific techniques next time I bring her up and down to see if I can get the sail all the way up. There is a bit of a binding feel to the halyard as she gets towards the top of the mast. Not sure if some kind of track lube would help. I don't see any knots or fraying on the halyard.
One of these days I'll get to chat with you guys. Hope you had a good Happy Hour!
Jim
Jim - I had the same thoughts as Tim, looks as if you're not getting the sail to the top. Lube might help, but something tells me it is another issue. I would first take the sail off and inspect the entire luff and the slides. Unfortunately, lowering the mast, although a pain, is the only way you'll get a good look at it.
Quote from: JimInVA on Aug 26, 2023, 11:07 AMYep. I realize now that I had the start time wrong. Happy Hour on the east coast starts earlier. Maybe that's the reason for my bad math 😁!
I have felt all along that my mainsail was not going all the way up. Seems to be 6-8" from the top of the mast. Not sure what I can do about it without lowering the mast and that is quite an ordeal. Getting the mast up and down safely and efficiently is my main obstacle to being a true "trailersailor."
I will try some wiggling and other very scientific techniques next time I bring her up and down to see if I can get the sail all the way up. There is a bit of a binding feel to the halyard as she gets towards the top of the mast. Not sure if some kind of track lube would help. I don't see any knots or fraying on the halyard.
One of these days I'll get to chat with you guys. Hope you had a good Happy Hour!
Jim
Jim, 5:00 PM Pacific (my time here in SoCal) is the earliest I can start the PSHH, so I make sure the announcements clearly reflect 5 PM PST/8 PM EST. It's only 40 minutes, so an 8:00 Eastern start time for the East coast folks has been manageable so far for most. Hope to see you next time!
FWIW, my bolt rope had shrunk a good 6 to 8 inches which could be part of the reason why you're not able to get the top of the sail much higher, - though it looks like from the pic that there's a couple of inches worth of slack in the bolt rope.
I can't see a cringle for a Cunningham but that may be due to the angle of the photos.
Are all your battens in place and the right length?
If your wife is open to the idea of getting new sails I'd go for it. A friend of mine had some tanbark sails made and they are gorgeous. He's got the right boat for them though. Not sure they'd look as nice on a Precision. tanbark.jpg
Looking at the sails again, I agree I think your bolt rope shrunk. Like I said in my previous post it's a band aid. New sails would make a world of difference. Also it looks like you are missing a sail slug. One other thing is to think about is adding a dog bone to make it easier to reef. Two rings tied together with strapping through the reef grommet to hook on to the reef hook.
As far as the full height mainsail hoist, remember that prior to hoisting the main, make sure that the mainsheet and the vang are let off. If your mainsheet or vang is tight, it will hold the leech tight, preventing you from getting full hoist.
And, of course, a shrunken bolt rope can keep that luff looking slack.
I think the P18/21/23 do not use main luff downhauls. You would need a Cunningham eye in the sail. In general, I think PBW did not give us enough sail controls. They feel you can do everything with main sheet tension and vang. I respectfully disagree, although I have to say a Cunningham is just about the only control I have not added. Next year. My new main has a place for it; I just never installed the line.