So... we had our final race of the season yesterday. Only 4 boats were participating. Forecast was for 13 with gusts to 25. I had sailed in similar conditions several weeks ago and it had gone well. Temp was forecast to peak at 55. Water temp was 70. I layered up and had long wool socks, a wool long sleeve t-shirt and synthetic neck gator. I put both reefs in the main before leaving the dock. With jib furled I motor sailed with a following breeze 3 or 4 miles. When a mile or so from the race area I shut down the motor and unfurled the jib. Had about 50 minutes to start time - the sailing was good and the boat didn't seem overly challenged by the conditions with no excessive heeling. I had a good start and tacked a few times heading towards the windward mark. Just before the mark I tacked again, set the jib and suddenly experienced a gust much stronger than what we had been experiencing. I released the main but did not make it to the jib before the mast was parallel to the water. We hung there for several seconds before she went all the way over and turtled. I immediately tried to get to the keel but couldn't reach it. A fellow sailor waved a jet ski over. With one hand on the jet ski I was able to reach the keel with the other and pull myself up. Hanging as far to the side as possible, the boat slowly started righting. It settled upright with the bow a foot or two under the surface and the last several feet of the combings and stern above water. No, the hatch boards weren't in - a partial board was in and the hatch was open. There was probably a window of a few minutes where I may have been able to bail if I had a bucket. The bow settled further down quickly so the boat was fully awash. All sailors and the pontoon committee boat came to render aid and to gather my belongings which were floating away. Initially we tried towing from the bow but it just dove deeper with any forward motion. We finally tied the boat backwards alongside the pontoon. I stood on 1 leg at the stern and tried to keep the rudder straight for the long slog to state park marina. We went straight into a wide slip and tied off the Precision between the pontoon and dock. We were able to tie the bow just high enough that the cockpit was not fully awash. About 90 minutes of bailing with 2 five gallon buckets got the water level low enough to finish with 40 minutes with a hand pump. I left the boat in the slip, my wife brought me dry clothes for the ride home. Total time wet - over 3 hours. The bailing and pumping kept me from getting too cold. This afternoon I'll take the truck and haul out for the season. Before hauling I'll take the plug out of the Suzuki and then see if it will start.
Observers of this fiasco said it was the wind on the bottom of the boat that turned me over. The 165 is quite stable upside down! Never thought I would need the flotation but I will add more. Hatch board and hatch will be secure in all weather. My new limit will be forecasts for gusts no higher than upper teens.
This unpleasant situation was salvaged by the kindness and efforts of fellow club members. I'm forever in their debt and regret they had to abandon the final race of the season.
Thanks for sharing your story. Always things for everyone to learn when something like that happens, - and it's surprising how quick it can happen. For awhile I was pretty religious about closing up the hatch in windy weather, but I've gotten a little complacent lately and your experience serves as a reminder.
A P18 sunk in the spring, also from a gust of wind that was much more than what they had been experiencing earlier.
The positive flotation in the P165 proved its worth in your case.
Don't worry about your friends and the race. Many of us either have or will one day need assistance. So when someone else needs it, in my experience there are plenty who will offer it happily and freely. There will always be more races.
Wow - glad you're okay. Good to know that the positive flotation did its job and kept the boat from going under completely. It is disturbing to hear that the boat turtled, but my guess is the influx of water into the cabin had much to do with that. At least you were able to right her, with moderate effort. Good thing the water was not too cold, but even 70 degree water can be conducive to hypothermia.
I've sailed my P165 in winds in the mid teens, and found her to round-up rather quickly. Combined with easing the main sheet, I usually avoid the worst of a gust. Only a couple of times has she been down to the gunnel, coming back up quickly. Were the sails cleated when it turtled? Gybing in heavy air is a little tricky, but as you were heading to windward it seems that the gust must have been exceptionally strong. Was this on a lake? Lake winds can be rather unpredictable. Did other boats experience the same strong gust?
Again, glad you're Ok. Seems that you did things correctly but the boat was overwhelmed.
Hi Eddie,
Sorry to hear of your P165 mishap, but very happy you and your boat made it ok. Also good to know that the P165 stayed afloat. Apparently your mast is intact, yes? Several years ago in a super windy situation, mine broke off, then broke into two pieces when it hit the water. That was pricey! Again, happy to hear you are ok and appreciate your sharing this with us, especially about the hatch covers which are easy to leave open.
Glad it worked out. I would guess that the initial knockdown had a lot to do with not being able to reach the jib. In my experience, small boats usually round up before going over if the main is all that's under pressure. But a tight jib, especially with a reefed main, will keep the boat turning downwind. Slacking the mainsheet no longer helps, and once the boom hits the water, it can't go farther out in any case. In dicey situations, I'm inclined to handhold the jib and cleat the main. My reasoning is that the self-tailing winches on my P21 are far away and hard to release, while the main is close at hand on a cam cleat. Really hoping I never have to post a similar account that proves I'm wrong.
As a fellow P-165 sailor, I appreciate you posting this detailed account of the knockdown & recovery. Very glad that everyone was okay and the boat safely home.
QuoteNever thought I would need the flotation but I will add more.
For a long time I was a whitewater canoeist. Floatation air bags were essential gear. Lightweight and effective. I wonder if they would make sense in a sailboat.
https://www.nrs.com/nrs-canoe-center-float-bag/pvt5
https://www.nrs.com/nrs-canoe-3-d-end-float-bags/puss
Dan
Talbot - Good analysis of the forces on the sails and consequences. Edie C seems to confirm exactly the situation you describe. On my boat I usually cleat the jib and hold the main sheet, but after reading this account I might keep both in hand. Also, it has been my practice to drop the jib when the wind pipes up.
Dan - the float bags might make a difference in the bow. For the P18 they may be a great solution to maintain the boat above water
A quick suggestion the Suzuki, in addition to the plug and rocking the crank, turn it carb facing straight down, and rock any water out of the crank case. Either place, spinning it can cause damage.
Rocking back and forth slowly works best.
I had just completed a tack. The mainsheet was in my hand and I had just set the jib. The "rogue" gust knocked the boat over in about the time it takes to blink. The main was released. The boat was on her beam with the mast a few feet above the water. At that point the sails were in the wind shadow of the boat. The boat, on her beam, was high and dry. There was no water in the cockpit when the wind on the bottom of the boat pushed her on over. She turtled as soon as the sails hit the water. Experienced sailors who witnessed this said it was not wind in the sails that turtled her - it was wind hitting the perpendicular bottom of the boat. I think a lot of water entered the cabin when it was inverted but the majority entered as I righted the boat. Having hatch boards in and hatch closed may have significantly reduced the water in the cabin.
Hauled her out today. Other than a few lost items there is no apparent damage. I know not to try starting an engine if there is the possibility of water in it. My tool kit lacked the proper spark plug socket so I pulled slowly a couple of times. After that I gave 2 quick tugs and she fired right up. I motored to the ramp and let it idle another 10 or 12 minutes. Rather miraculous for an engine that was submerged upside down for several minutes. Once home I pulled several hundred pounds of soggy gear out of the boat. All in all I'm counting my blessings.
Thanks for the responses and input.
Wow, quite the story Eddie! Glad all ended OK. CrisB on this forum has a small 2-stroke that got submerged at one point, and he swears it runs better now than before that happened!
Eddie - Thanks for the clarification. A few lost items is no big deal considering what could have been.
Eddie,
It's great that you're ok, and your boat will be ok soon, and thanks so much for posting this. Since I come from the world of "bathing suit" sailing when knockdowns were part of the fun, I have always kept the cabin boards in unless I need to go in and get something, or if sailing with other people, someone needs or wants to go in.
I'm sure you'll be right as rain by next season!
Frank
Thanks Frank - Had the hatch been closed up the boat would probably have floated higher upside down, would have been much easier to right and wouldn't have taken on nearly as much water. Your experience with knock downs with boards in gives you knowledge I could benefit from. Future sailing on calm days I'll still batten down the hatches. An afterthought about the bow gradually sinking lower: there is a 48 qt cooler in front of the mast that probably helped with flotation until it filled with water. I think I'll fill the cooler with styrofoam and secure it in place.
Here's a righting test of the Hugo Boss boat from a few years ago. Very wide and flat deck so pretty stable upside down. They cant the keel over to get it to right. Eddie had to use his body to accomplish the same.
It's surprising how long it takes. And this is with no mast, no sails, and no wind/waves to fight against.
It has to pass these tests in order to be able to race.
I wonder how real world the conditions are when they test boats designed for average consumers.
We do know based on Eddie's experience and based on a couple of P18 stories that "self-righting" isn't a given and there will be conditions where the boats won't. Obviously avoiding a knockdown is best, but what I want to know is that if it does happen, are there things that the skipper/crew should do to aid (or not inhibit) the boat's ability to right itself?
CleatingOne thing that is different about the P18 (and maybe about the 165) compared to other boats I've sailed is that the jib cleats are mounted so the lines run through them parallel to the centerline of the boat and not angled or turned towards the center or opposite side.
It sounds like Eddie didn't have time to get to it anyway, but in my experience that orientation makes it hard to uncleat the jib when sailing close-hauled in windy conditions and sitting on the high side. The angle is wrong. I see that newer P18s have jib cleats with quick-release guides on them. Maybe that helps.
Quote from: Eddie C on Oct 09, 2023, 08:59 PMRather miraculous for an engine that was submerged upside down for several minutes.
I think the biggest part of this was the fact that you were racing and the motor wasn't running. (If you were racing and the engine was running, I think someone would have protested you! ;D ) So it never had a chance to suck water into the carburetor. Upside down would have also caused the fuel float to think it needed to cut off the flow of fuel into the carburetor.
Dang. Thats a very scary story Eddie. I wasnt too surprised hearing this had happened to a P18, but I kinda thought the P165 was immune to turtling and would always self-right when knocked flat because of its bulb-keel design.
Also bummed to hear the bow sits underneath the water when completely flooded. was all the stock floatation foam in the default place? was there a normal sized battery secured in the normal battery storage spot?
With my battery mounted where it is up in the bow, its making me wonder if I need to consider extra flotation up there.
While in limbo during the knockdown, if the wind had let up a tad, I suspect the boat would have righted. Needless to say, I was astonished when it did not. To my knowledge all stock styrofoam was in place as well as 2 thick walled smallish styrofoam coolers near the back. I had no battery mounted but had a 7 lb battery sitting in front of the cooler. An 8 lb anchor was in a box just behind the mast. Surprisingly, neither of these items fell out while inverted. While awash in the boat I stayed as far back as I could beside the motor. As I said, I will fill the cooler with styrofoam and strap it in. If I knew how I would post a pic of the mostly submerged boat.
Quote from: Eddie C on Oct 10, 2023, 07:40 PMWhile in limbo during the knockdown, if the wind had let up a tad, I suspect the boat would have righted. Needless to say, I was astonished when it did not. To my knowledge all stock styrofoam was in place as well as 2 thick walled smallish styrofoam coolers near the back. I had no battery mounted but had a 7 lb battery sitting in front of the cooler. An 8 lb anchor was in a box just behind the mast. Surprisingly, neither of these items fell out while inverted. While awash in the boat I stayed as far back as I could beside the motor. As I said, I will fill the cooler with styrofoam and strap it in. If I knew how I would post a pic of the mostly submerged boat.
Hit "reply" dont go to quote or quick reply. Then open the "attachments and other options" drop down box below the window. Drag the file in to it, hit "upload" then copy-paste the "attach id" generated code in to the response window.
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Pics attached (I hope). Eddie C
Quote from: Eddie C on Oct 10, 2023, 09:22 PMPics attached (I hope). Eddie C
Wow. You're right, if it was floating a bit higher it could have been bailed out enough to make towing easier at least, though that probably would have been a lot of work.
A couple of weeks ago I helped a friend with one of the youth sailing boats that had blown over at its mooring during a storm. It would have turtled too except that it was shallow and the mast stuck in the mud (which was its own problem).
After we got it righted, it too was floating too low to bail. Had to drag it to shore. It was super unstable and a fight just to keep it from capsizing again.
It took a long time to get the water out of it.
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Straander, it works with quote too, just not quick reply.
Also, after dragging/dropping and uploading, just hitting the insert button does the copying and pasting for you.
Quote from: Eddie C on Oct 10, 2023, 09:22 PMPics attached (I hope). Eddie C
Oh daamn. The flotation really seems to be designed around just barely keeping the boat salvageable, rather then keeping it in a state where it will keep the crew safe in the case of major flooding in the open water.
I am really thinking of ideas now on how to add more bow flotation to mine. I want a bit more piece of mind for when I take it out in the ocean with multiple crewmen.
Also, for everyone's reference. This compartment on the left side of the cooler storage area in the P165's bow is completely empty. If you cut an access hole in to that overall area like I did, you can fill it with little 2'x1'x3" foam blocks to bolster up bow flotation. I merely did it to replace foam I removed to make room for my battery.
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Edited Image from Eddie C:
IMG_3827.jpeg
That certainly is an eye opening image for P-165 sailors that thought the factory floatation would float the boat higher. I usually sail with the companionway hatch open!
Yes it is, I will put hatch boards in when wind is above 5 mph. I sail an inland lake that is known for unexpected guts of winds.
I think some inflatable flotation in the peak might be a fine solution to keeping the bow higher. Currently I have my "big" anchor (8 pounds), chain and rode in a bin in the peak. I might move it aft after seeing how the boat just barely stays afloat.
I'd want a more permanent solution then something inflatable that I'd have to re-inflate every time I go out. But I just recalled that I cant fill the bow with rigid foam because then It'd be impossible to get the boom in the cabin.
Good point about the boom - it barely fits anyway. I like the idea of filling the compartment beside the cooler area. Think I'll also bag up some worn out life jackets and cushions, seal them in the cooler and secure the cooler. I felt under the front compartment - the styrofoam in there felt rounded and worn down from many years of shifting. A previous owner had stuffed a few pool noodles in there too. I will try to add styrofoam there also. Another option is to pour expanding liquid into the holes for cup holders behind the back rests. I hope to never capsize again but hitting a submerged piling would be another possibility for taking on water. A sobering thought is what would I have done if fellow sailors had not been there to help.
Is expanding foam closed-cell, and does it have the longevity to keep from disintegrating over time?
Coincidentally, the day after my capsize, I received an email ad from Jamestown Distributors for a 2 part polyurethane 94% closed cell foam which is unaffected by gas/oil and provides 75 lbs of flotation per quart. It comes in 2 quart kits. No, I'm not a paid advertiser but I may try their product. The brand is Total Boat.
Looked it up on the internet (so it must be true ;) ) ordinary Styrofoam has 55 pounds buoyancy per cubic foot. To get meaningful floatation in the bow would take up a good amount of space. An inflatable with a foot pump and a quick release valve seems to me, a better option. Got me thinking (which is dangerous) I have an older air mattress from camping that might fit the bill.
Brian,
From my whitewater canoeing experience........
Inflatable floatation bags can be left full. They are sturdy and meant to be kept full for long periods as long as not overinflated. They need to be able to swell & contract with temp changes.
Also, they need to be secured in place, or they will float out of position just when you need them.
Did not think about how unsecured flotation might move out of the exact space it is needed most. The foam blocks aft in the P165 are secured with a strap. Securing flotation in the bow might prove difficult.
Thought about sailing with the hatch board in place and companionway slide closed, but it would be a real pain. My crew or myself are in/out of the cabin often, whether to get sandwiches, snacks, binoculars, drinks and such. Also, I slip a mahogany board into the bottom 1/3 of the hatch. It holds my depth sounder/fish finder, radio and cup holder.
Quote from: Brian N. on Oct 16, 2023, 12:03 PMThought about sailing with the hatch board in place and companionway slide closed, but it would be a real pain. My crew or myself are in/out of the cabin often, whether to get sandwiches, snacks, binoculars, drinks and such. Also, I slip a mahogany board into the bottom 1/3 of the hatch. It holds my depth sounder/fish finder, radio and cup holder.
That's exactly what I do too.
Great Stuff expanding foam is NOT waterproof! It will absorb water and very slowly release it. I know but :-X
Quote from: Brian N. on Oct 16, 2023, 12:03 PMDid not think about how unsecured flotation might move out of the exact space it is needed most. The foam blocks aft in the P165 are secured with a strap. Securing flotation in the bow might prove difficult.
Thought about sailing with the hatch board in place and companionway slide closed, but it would be a real pain. My crew or myself are in/out of the cabin often, whether to get sandwiches, snacks, binoculars, drinks and such. Also, I slip a mahogany board into the bottom 1/3 of the hatch. It holds my depth sounder/fish finder, radio and cup holder.
Agreed. Whenever there is more then 2 people on the boat, there is lots of traffic in and out of the cabin that would be made much more awkward by having to work around a closed hatch every time.
That is all horrifying... I thought it wasn't supposed to be possible.
I have a P15K and would never have gone out in that wind. When I go out in wind that is rather less than that, but still gusty, I furl the jib. A few people commented that the problem is with the jib, so if I was holding the main sheet and managed to let it out, would I have avoided this catastrophe with the furled jib?
Sounds like a reasonable approach to furl the jib. In hindsight, furling 1/2 of the jib may have prevented my knockdown. Once the mast was parallel to the water I don't think anything would have prevented the boat from turtling. I'm still convinced it was the wind on the bottom of the boat that pushed it over.
Quote from: Eddie C on Dec 10, 2023, 03:16 PMSounds like a reasonable approach to furl the jib. In hindsight, furling 1/2 of the jib may have prevented my knockdown. Once the mast was parallel to the water I don't think anything would have prevented the boat from turtling. I'm still convinced it was the wind on the bottom of the boat that pushed it over.
I've seen enough capsized boats to believe you when you say that the wind pushing on the bottom helped push it over. Boats that aren't very stable on their sides. The stubby keels on the Precisions are what helps make them more trailerable but they are less effective at righting the boat than a fin keel with a bulb.