Hello Friends,
My Luger Southwind 21 has a 400# external keel stub and swing keel. I just finished epoxying in the new framing and want to drop the stub, re-bed, and re-hang the arrangement with new stainless hardware.
I could hire the boatyard to do that but I am afraid that a short haul and a couple hours yard worker time could be 500 or more dollars. I'd rather spend that money on...well, another boat :)
I saw a couple videos where a gentleman jacked up a boat and removed the trailer and removed his keel.
Anyone done this maneuver? Which bedding compound? Best way to loosen up whatever adhesive/sealant is already there? is already there?
I have been looking at lower end, 28-52" x 2500 lb pipe stands, I could get 3 or 4 of those for less than 300$ and be set the next boat off trailer experience. My boat all up is around 2000# so not pushing it in that regard.
I still have about a week until full epoxy cure, will not mess with the hull until then.
Thanks!
Calling Charles Brennan. Charles Brennan to the white courtesy phone!
Wayne, and Spot,
Yes, I saw the post but can not do very much about it since the web site is clogged with pics (of which I am probably the most guilty) and therefore, I can not provide a photo essay of pulling my trailer out from underneath my boat.
Ditto with my 2015 keel refurbishment, since it is frozen somewhere in the old TSBB archives. (Although, I do have the original pics and could post them once the web site gets humming along again.)
Not hard, but maybe not for the Faint of heart, either! ;D
Hope this clarifies,
Charles Brennan
Thanks Wayne, thanks CB.
All of the cast iron is outside the hull, held to the hull with 8 stainless bolts+goop along with a stainless wire going between the swinging part, up a standpipe, and into a winch. I have watched a few more YouTube videos and think I have the basic concept for jacking the boat to remove trailer to access this area. The iron is looking rough but not pitted so far. So I may take a few beats to sand and repaint. Last quote on sandblasting this was 500$ so I don't see that happening...
I hope you have a good jack! Or even better, a chain fall and a big beam. I bought a 3 ton floor jack awhile back and wonder why I haven't had one all of my life. Like, young men should be issued their very own 3T floor jack! Jack the F-150 up in two seconds! I have all the tools to make angled cuts in timber, and can weld up something if I can get the metal. All of these skills can be very useful in such a job. Be careful of el cheapo pipe jacks( although I'm used to picking up lots more than a ton). All of the wooden stuff (blocks, timbers, wedges, etc.) you use to temporarily hold something in place is called cribbing, and you'll need some for sure. Squares of plywood to spread the load. 4X4s and 2X4s. I jacked the catboat off the trailer awhile back and it was a dodgy deal if I ever saw one. Not only is the boat extremely wide, it has rocker for and aft, and it makes it really difficult to keep steady. Of all the stuff I've ever jacked up, it is the most difficult to get right. Most boats would be lots easier though. A good partner and extra set of hands and eyes is invaluable. If you don't jack your truck up for fun, then proceed with caution. A grinder and a stock of heavy duty sanding pads is lots cheaper than a sand blasting crew!
Thanks Riley. I do have a good floor jack and some experience with heavier machinery; I do not have any overhead gear. One of the videos the guy made his own 4 stands from wood, the second other guy spent the money on 2 real Brownell boatyard stands and a strap to a ceiling joist, the third used concrete blocks and 2x4's and had to reposition the bow blocks to let the trailer pass since the original third support interfered with a trailer cross member. The two doing keels did not have the stub just the swinging iron. I will need to be about 3 feet up for the trailer to clear the keel.
Spot, So I went and reviewed my pics/articles from the Great Swing Keel Refurb of 2014/2015.
A few comments from the articles:
1) Was very disappointed with sand blasting.
a) If you have any significant scale build-up, it takes exponentially more sand blasting to remove it.
b) Needle gun would have been great, but could not obtain/rent one.
c) Started with an ordinary ball peen hammer, but quickly switched to a welding/slag hammer. This did an excellent job knocking off scales of rust.
d) After that, a 4.5" angle grinder made short work of the rest of it, and also helped at rudimentary fairing.
2) Phosphoric acid was next.
a) It keeps rust from re-forming by converting whatever oxidation is on the keel surface into Iron Phosphate.
b) You can test for any missed rust spots by applying water, waiting for a day and observing the rust.
c) Grind off the rust spots and apply more phosphoric acid. (I used an ordinary chip brush.)
d) You will get a grayish/whitish color when there are no more rust areas.
3) Coal Tar Epoxy. (CTE)
a) This is great stuff. When I originally made keel repairs in 1999 (the reason I first found my way to TSBB and got help from Charlies Jones and Noemi Ybarra) I mistakenly applied ordinary epoxy fairing and then CTE.
Bad Move.
b) The fairing epoxy allowed moisture incursion and over 15 years, allowed rust scale to build up. THIS Time, I applied CTE, (3 coats) THEN fairing epoxy.
c) You can get a gallon can from Grainger along with (IIRC) either a pint or a quart, of the hardener.
d) You WILL need a heavy duty stirring mechanism (i.e., forget using a battery drill and a paddle.)
e) The idea is to get from crunchy peanut butter to Hershey's syrup consistency.
f) Tried rollers and paint brushes, with roughly equal results.
4) Epoxy Fairing and NACA 15
a) Originally intended to build up sides and then fair to a NACA 15 foil. Discovered to my consternation, that there already WAS a NACA 15 foil hiding under all the rust scale!
b) Google around until you find templates that you can print out and glue to cardboard to check against your keel.
c) Epoxy faired anyway, just to smooth out finish.
5) Paint. Used some Interlux paint in a color similar to the original keel color.
9 years and the keel, (with the exception of a few spots on the leading edge from coral rock groundings) looks virtually new.
Hope this helps,
Charles Brennan
I did a partial lift a few years back to replace a swing keel cable; had to drop the board enough to grind off the shackle. I also used a 3 ton jack and cribbing to spread the lifting load, then more 4x4 cribbing to hold it up. Lot of test jiggling to ensure stability, and I was still partially on the trailer. I'm working through a 4-frame cradle of 4x4 amd a lot of excess 2x6 I've got to do the CTE keel repair Charles mentioned (my Windrose is due!) I'm confident I can manage a wooden frame, with appropriate weight distribution, with that material, at a reasonable cost. Mostly because I don't want to manage the welding, though I could do that too.
Thanks CB, thanks Travis!
We have a travel lift at work and I lick my chops every time they fire that thing up. Of course way too big for my use but it makes weight and moving things no big deal.
Here is the keel in question (woohoo pics are uploading again :) thanks Kurt)
spot_s21_june12023_1.jpg
When I had to lift my 2400 lb Starwind I had a 1500# chain hoist available. To make that work I built a substantial rear bunk out of 2x4s and 2x6s. It was tall enough to fit snugly under the stern when the trailer wheel was cranked all the way down in the front. Then I lifted the bow with a sling and the hoist, getting the whole boat high enough to pull the trailer out. Since I was sharing the load between the bunk and the hoist I was holding about 1200# up with each. You could do the same thing with a 1000 lb jack under the bow and some cross beams and blocks strong enough to support 1000 lbs. Once you jack the bow up high enough. You would have to put the beams under the bow, supported at either end with blocks set far enough apart for the trailer to fit between. I'm not sure what size beams you would need to support 1000lbs with an 8 plus foot span, but I'm sure that you can look it up. I would guess that 2 or 3 2x8s would do the trick.
Your cost would be less than $100. I can send you a picture of the stern bunk if you are interested.
RF, that procedure sounds solid, thanks.
I ordered 3 of these last week, rated 2500# each:
(https://img.vevorstatic.com/us%2FGJ1107BGJ-VX00001V0%2Fgoods_thumb_220-v9%2Fpipe-stand-m100-1.2.jpg?timestamp=1671080210219)
Planning on 2 at the stern and 1 to play leapfrog with a jack between the cross members as the trailer is extracted. I also considered making the old 4" square steel basketball pole on the edge of the driveway into a derrick for lifting the front but that seems like a lot of work... :)
As to figuring out the beam, I recall sitting through an hour of calculations in a college level structures class only to have the instruction say at the bell 'this is the last time you'll do this, from now on look it up in the back of the book'. The other takeaway is that a 2x4 is 4x stiffer on edge than flat.
FYI, I used an engine hoist to help get my boat off the trailer.
I need to do some repair to my web pages....the description is here, but the photos don't show up right now.
http://dcwi.com/nybarra/keel.html
Thanks Noemi, wow, what a write-up! :)
One time we had to move a condenser into a structural receptacle made of concrete at a nuclear powerhouse. The plan was to build a track, jack the thing up and put it on rollers on the track, and winch it in. Now, we're talking a pretty big condenser and I wouldn't even guess at the tonnage. Maybe 50....maybe 100. It's been too long, but the thing is, that sucker was HEAVY, consisting of THOUSANDS of heavy wall stainless 3/4" tubes and numerous tube baffle plates of around 1/2 " C.S. I think. Not to mention the floor was 1" thick and it had scores of legs. And I'll never forget that super jumping up and down for joy when that thing started moving. Only to start eating crow as the track the whole bit was riding on started rolling up ahead of the rollers. Someone had built the track out of material that was MUCH too thin.
Oh yes, we got well acquainted with 100T hydraulic jacks after that!!!! One step at a time, and don't get in a bind. Watch your fingers and toes, and leave yourself room to exit stage right if things turn nasty. It always helps to have help on this type of job. Maybe not so much manual labor but as a sounding board about how to proceed :)
PS...the keel don't look too bad. A good power brushing and I think it'll be close to being ready to finish. If you've never used a power brush, beware. Heavy long sleeves, good gloves, a respirator, face shield, glasses, and ear plugs. Take your time and don't let the grinder get you. It isn't a pretty sight :o
Thanks Riley. Are you talking about a cup brush or wheel that goes on a 7 or 9" sander?
It would be nice just to be able to leave it and go but I am this close, might as well 'blueprint' it with new bolts and sealant so it is set for the next 50 years.
Interesting video:
PS The stands arrived today, they look pretty good.
I had a lot of help with the whole thing. My former partner was really good at both the doing and the writing.
Spot, the cup brush is ok I guess, but I'm more familiar with a flat wire wheel. Needless to say, if you let that thing grab you, you are GOT. I'd never think twice but I have to remember some folks haven't spent major time with that kind of tool and it can bite REAL FAST! :o :o :o
Thanks Riley, be careful messages are always worth repeating. I am used to running a 9" as a sander but not as a grinder so I will need to be cautious.
I ordered the new 1/2-13 UNC SS bolts, nuts, and washers for the project.
Here is a proposed detail of the 8 bolts.
Wondering if the O-ring would do any good and/or if I should use spacers in non-critical areas to get a uniform set and prevent excess squeeze-out of the sealant.
spot_keelbolt_detail.jpg
New bolts arrived today, so...
Boat is off the trailer, centerboard is out of the keel stub, and things are not looking too bad.
I am also thinking I should replace the wire from winch to centerboard while I am at it.
spot_s21_20june2023_0.jpg
spot_s21_20june2023_1.jpg
YES!!! Replace the cable. 2 scenarios. 1) Cable breaks while you are out sailing and you can't reload the boat. 2) Cable breaks while you are headed to the ramp and now you can't launch.
Besides, the board is already down so now is the time to replace the cable.
Thanks Wayne. I did manage to bend the ferrule on the swage to the centerboard a few degrees. As the board flopped from being vertical to flat to the ground, I had not played out enough slack with the cable...so it went taught and the swage was subjected to a side load rather than in-line tension as it has been hanging for the last 45 years.
A few years back, West Marine did a nice job on the new lifelines: price, delivery, and customer service with all of my questions. I'll probably start there for this. The local WM shop does not swage so they had another one out East do it.
PS Fixin' to drop the keel tonight. Stretch goal would be to refinish over the weekend during the rain (we need it) and back on the boat Monday.
This cold mean a shakedown sail early July.
Keel is off and looks better than I thought it would.
10 feet of cable is off too. Does 7x19 wire measure differently than say everything else? I get .200 +/- on the caliper but the aircraft eye is marked MS20668-6 which would be 3/16"
spot_s21_22june2023_1.jpg
spot_s21_22june2023_2.jpg
spot_s21_22june2023_3.jpg
spot_s21_22june2023_4.jpg
spot_s21_22june2023_5.jpg
spot_s21_22june2023_6.jpg
Spot, Your statement: " Does 7x19 wire measure differently than say everything else? I get .200 +/- on the caliper but the aircraft eye is marked MS20668-6 which would be 3/16""
Depends on how you measured.
In this pic:
rope7x19.png
Measuring across the points would give you a different measurement, than if you measured across the flats.
3/16" yields .1875", so the .0125" would be well within the two measurement points on your calipers.
Further tolerance shift could be due to measurement while the cable is relaxed and trying to unfurl, rather than when held at tension. I suspect the cable is really 3/16", so the aircraft eye that is 3/16" is the right one to use.
I used a Transatlantic eye splice when I made my swing keel cable.
You cut off the center yarn and take the remaining 6 yarns and thread them around each other in opposite directions.
IMG_20140906_084705_446x600.jpg
Note the heat shrink on the yarn ends, to minimize blood loss.
IMG_20140906_090126_495x600.jpg
Once the yarn ends are entwined completely, force in your closed eye thimble.
IMG_20140906_091245_525x600.jpg
Open eye thimbles will chafe the bottom of the splice, or the ears will bend.
Either way, it's a PITA to deal with compared to a closed eye thimble.
IMG_20140906_085601_777x600.jpg
Tie it down with ty-raps, as it wants to unwind and continue to tighten the splice at bottom.
IMG_20140906_092906_576x600.jpg
Added a single-hole copper swage to hold things tight.
IMG_20140906_135618_411x600.jpg
Trim off the loose ends.
IMG_20140906_140433_359x600.jpg
Proof to skeptics, that you can make a wire rope splice without getting bloody.
IMG_20140906_140528_615x600.jpg
All that being said, I am seriously considering replacing it with a Dyneema Brummel locked eyesplice on a stainless steel closed thimble. Considering it seriously enough, that I already have the parts on hand. I think it would solve a few problems for me.
BTW, I have to disagree with an assertion made by Wayne:
"1) Cable breaks while you are out sailing and you can't reload the boat."
I have TWICE recovered my boat with a busted keel cable, onto my trailer.
(Both times, while single-handed.)
Not saying it was easy or that I didn't have to dunk the trailer farther than usual, but as you position the hull, when the keel hits the back trailer frame member (I have a roller there) it retracts nicely, as the hull is winched onto the trailer.
If not fortunate enough to have an adequate ramp drop-off, I was prepared to take a dock line clear around the keel and hull and then use an oar to make a Spanish Windlass, to retract the keel enough, to winch the hull back onto the trailer. I even considered taking the eye on one end of a dock line and looping it over a winch, running the line under the hull and keel, and then placing the other end of the line on the winch on the opposite side of the boat and winching the keel up that way. You only have to get the keel up enough, to get it started on the trailer. The trailer winch cable does the rest of the heavy lifting.
As it happened, the first thing I tried (the easiest!) was adequate.
Just because everything's going to Hell in a Hand-basket, doesn't mean you need to panic!! :D
Hope this helps,
Charles Brennan
Nice post and splice CB, thanks.
Parts are off and pressure washed. The blade is not a foil to my disappointment.
I tested some of the sanding options today. So far my favorite for effort and finish is the poly-carbide wheel (purple lines). The used flap disk was removing more metal, the sanding disk was comfortable but a bit slow, and the wire wheels were also slower and harder to handle as warned by Riley upthread. I need a better/lower profile retaining nut for the grinder to proceed with the poly-carbide.
Is a self-etching primer something to consider for this application? I don't see myself paying for coal tar epoxy. I also have Rustoleum 'rusty metal' primer and a can of Rustoleum finish that approximates the hull color.
Thanks!
s21_blade_pwash1.jpgs21_keelstub_sandtest1.jpg
I saw this guy just the other day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlCniNoPLN8
So, Purple is the way to go according to him.
Spot, THAT is not that rusty a keel!
s21_blade_pwash1.jpg
THIS is a rusty keel!! :-[
IMG_20141115_102602_450x600.jpg
Check the blue paint towards the bottom, that was the original paint trapped under layers of rust! :o
It took several weekends of chipping hunks of rust with a welding hammer and grinding with an angle grinder to get it just to look like this:
IMG_20141115_124006_450x600.jpg
And that was only on the one side!! :o
IMG_20141115_124156_450x600.jpg
Let me preface this by saying I'm a BIG Fan of Coal Tar Epoxy. It was recommended to me by my Mentor, Charlie Jones in 1999 and he was right then (even when I made some mistakes in the repair) and he was right in 2014.
However, your keel and stub is not NEARLY so grundgy as mine was.
If my keel had looked like:
s21_blade_pwash1.jpg
Think I would have coated the rusty area with some Naval Jelly, painted it and called it good; but that's just me.
A lot of times when you get advice on this board, it usually slants to the conservative, over-do it kind of suggestions, because NOBODY wants to be the Author Of Bad Advice. :-\
So, somewhere between a total Coal Tar Epoxy refurbishment and a lame paint job, is probably where you should aim.
If it was me in your shoes, I would use the purple wheel, and get a quart of Ospho.
https://www.ospho.com/directions.htm
I'd hit it with one coat, maybe two if you see any rust, then finish it with your Rust Oleum finish.
The key to a good application is a uniform whitish-grey (the Ospho people claim almost black; they lie, look at the pics) color from the Iron Phosphate chemical conversion. This is like an M&M, a thin candy coating that keeps oxygen off the metal and the finish paint protects the coating. Do it right and it looks like this:
IMG_20141221_160038_450x600.jpg
And whereas I was fighting a 400 lb behemoth, you're able to deal with more manageable 200 lb hunks of metal.
If I had to rate (IMHO) the various things out there to prioritize your project, my choices would be, in order:
1) Oshpho (coats as required) and a coupla top coats.
2) Rust Oleum Rust reformer and a coupla top coats.
3) Rust Oleum Rusty metal primer and a coupla top coats.
4) Naval Jelly and a coupla top coats.
5) Rust Oleum clean metal primer and a coupla top coats. (Although I wouldn't hold out much hope on it lasting any length of time.)
Hope this helps,
Charles Brennan
Thanks CB, I really appreciate the Ospho / Rustoleum decision matrix and photographic comparisons to your project. I take it that the top shelf option up would be coal tar epoxy after Ospho and the bbttom end option would be to do nothing or perhaps even worse, hit it with a coat of something just to make it 'short term pretty' without surface prep.
In the meantime, I ran the blade and stub through CAD and calcutated that it is near 256# / 116kg. If it were to be foiled within its current 'envelope' I'd loose about 23# / 10kg. I might check with a foundry and see what it would take to cast a new one as a curiosity, probably will be 'too rich for my blood' but since metal casting is another hobby of mine it seems sort of fun to ask...
Everyeon-
I appreciate all the advice given here and understand the risk and reward are all mine.
Wayne,
LOL, I think you posted the same link as me for the purple wheels :)
They seem to be the ticket for this project, I can report back after I get the right spindle nut and really run one through its paces.
bladecomp1.jpgkeelstub1.jpg
Spot, Those rankings are not arbitrary, but come from hard-won sweat equity. My boat came with a Trail-Rite trailer from California, that was painted steel. I am sure it does a bang-up job in fresh water high-altitude lakes in California where there is already a dearth of oxygen, but down here in sea-level salt-water south Florida, I had to baby it for the 5 years it took to fall apart completely, sinking my boat in the driveway. :'(
Year 1: Trailer was fine.
Year 2: Wirebrush and Rust Oleum metal primer and two finish coats.
(They weren't calling it "Rusty metal primer" back then, just metal primer. Naval Jelly worked, but required too much for the size of the trailer, to be economically feasible.)
Year 3: Grinding, Rust Oleum Rust Reformer and two finish coats.
Year 4: Chipping, grinding, Ospho, three finish coats.
Year 5: Nothing but rust holding hands and the rust had an argument and broke up, leaving various piles of rust in my driveway, with a boat sitting on the bunks.
Got a galvanized trailer in 1983 and never looked back. (Still have it, BTW.)
Transferring the boat from the rusted out hulk and onto a brand new trailer in a driveway involved what my wife refers to as: "Scary Engineering" and drew quite a crowd of neighbors; all of whom were apparently disappointed that there were no significant injuries, or destruction involved.
Dunno as I would worry all that much about the NACA 15 foil. I obtained a NACA 15 file somewhere on line, keyed in my keel dimensions downloaded the subsequent .pdf file and printed it out on two sheets of A4 and taped them together onto some cardboard, like so:
IMG_20141213_162034_800x600.jpg
Cut it out . . . .
IMG_20141213_162353_800x600.jpg
. . . . . and when I put it next to the keel so see how much fairing I would need . . . .
IMG_20141213_162525_800x600.jpg
I found (to my astonishment!) :o that the keel was already cast that way.
I was going to add some hideously expensive epoxy fairing to build up a NACA 15 foil and found I didn't need to.
Not to be overly critical of your boat's keel design, but it seems to me, the disruption in flow from your stub keel would tend to negate any slight advantages gained by fairing the keel to a NACA 15 foil shape. More Learned Marine Architect types might chime in with dissent, (and the Math to back it up!) ;) but that is just my gut feeling.
Just one guy's opinion,
Charles Brennan
"Scary Engineering" - heh. :o
I got about 1/2 of the keel stub sanded and the part that mates to the boat.
It took maybe 1/2 hour and one purple disk?
All was going well until I knocked it off the dolly putting it away and it landed on the power cord for the oscillating multi-tool and cut it clean in half. Had to piece it back together (crimps and electrical tape) before I could call it a night. I guess that is a quick lesson in keeping the work area clear, so glad it was not the live cord to the angle grinder...
It smelled like resin while sanding, just like the rudder repair smelled like resin. Wondering if that was factory or previous owner's material of choice?
I know I coated my cast iron keel with epoxy resin before I faired and painted it.
You ARE wearing a respirator, right???
Quote from: Noemi - Ensenada 20 on Jun 29, 2023, 10:27 AMI know I coated my cast iron keel with epoxy resin before I faired and painted it.
You ARE wearing a respirator, right???
Dust mask and hearing protection, yes. I do not wear the organic vapor rig for sanding although one could easily argue in favor of it if one smells styrene like I did. Full-face with positive airflow would be awesome.
Saw some advice at West Systems about applying epoxy and then 'sanding' it into the bare metal surface while still wet. I think the idea is to displace and encapsulate random bits before they rust. Thye also have a 422 barrier coat additive which seems to give the epoxy a bit of a paint-like body.
I did both of those things West Systems advises when I did my keel.
Thanks Noemi. I should sit down with a cup of coffee and read all of your and CB's notes again.
I think "epoxy, wire brush while it's wet, then epoxy with barrier coat" is an alternate to "Ospho, then coal tar epoxy." Two different methods, both of which work well.
It worked out in my recent travels to secure a can of West System 422 barrier coat additive.
Plan is to 'sand in' one coat plain epoxy coat followed by 2 coats with the additive and allow a longer cure then sand for tooth and coat with alkyd enamel paint. I will return the rusty metal primer to the store unused.
After leaving the keel sit for a week, I have a little discoloration.
Am I identifying the spots that need rework (sanding and re-treatment) with phosphoric acid correctly?
spot_rustbuster1.jpg
Spot, you are definitely identifying the rework spots, correctly.
You also have me a little confused, about your plans to "sand in" a coat of plain epoxy.
The biggest problem with oxidation, is that it occurs as soon as there is any oxygen present. The whole point to phosphoric acid treatment is to create a chemical layer of iron phosphate where the existing oxygen is bound up in the iron and phosphor (FePO4) and additional external oxygen (i.e. on the surface) cannot attach and oxidize (read: rust) the Iron.
Noemi's method of sanding under epoxy while still wet, is an attempt to deal with the fact that the keel started oxidizing (rusting) as soon as it was sandblasted, since oxygen was free to attach to the Iron. By sanding, this assured that most of the oxidized Iron was sanded/wire-brushed from the surface and no new oxygen could attach, since it was now protected by the still-wet epoxy.
I have no quarrel with this method; indeed, I am forced to point out that Noemi has only had to re-build her keel once, whereas I have required two attempts at it. :-[
(Although in my snarkier moments, I might mention that my keel has seen a lot more water, for a lot more years, than her keel has!) ;)
spot_rustbuster1.jpg
In the above pic, you are showing the same things I dealt with on my own keel.
My first attempt at applying the Phosphoric acid, after wetting it down and observing it the next day, showed just how much rust I had failed to grind off, that required remedial grinding.
IMG_20141119_083733_250x600.jpg
But after more grinding and about two more applications: SUCCESS!! ;D
IMG_20141129_111551_255x600.jpg
Based on what I see from your pic:
spot_rustbuster1.jpg
At this point, I would forego your cool 3M wheel and switch over to something like a Dremel tool with a small stainless steel wire brush. To remove the pitted rust you are showing, would require grinding the entire surface to the depth of the deepest rust pit. You would be better served by concentrating on those small areas with a small wire brush. The thing I liked the most about using Ospho, is that it really kept you honest and exposed even the smallest amount of Iron Oxide, on the surface of the keel. Once all free oxygen is bound to the Iron Phosphate, there is no longer any possibility of rusting, and therefore, no need for "sanding in" under the epoxy.
If you think about it for a minute, the sanding would in fact, damage that thin molecular coating of Iron Phosphate, and while safe under the wet epoxy, if the keel was ever scraped through the epoxy where the Iron Phosphate had been scraped, it would immediately begin rusting again.
The two mistakes I made in my 1999 keel refurb were:
1) I applied fairing epoxy to the treated metal, before applying the coal tar epoxy. The fairing epoxy was highly water absorbent and did not take too many "dings" grounding on reefs and rocks and whatnot, before I started getting significant rust.
2) I laid the keel on its side and applied things, one side at a time. This caused two "seams" front and back and obviously, the front seam getting the brunt of navigational errors ("I know every sand bar in the Bay, like the back of my hand!" BUMP!! "There's one, now!!") ;D rusted first and opened up, then allowed the epoxy to de-laminate from the keel over time. That could not have happened had I applied the coal tar epoxy first and in a total coating (not one side at a time) then faired it with an epoxy filler, after the fact.
I corrected both those errors on the 2nd refurbishment.
It looks like you are very close to being done with the Ospho treatments.
I would recommend against "sanding in" under an epoxy coating. I don't feel it would provide enough "tooth" for a better mechanical epoxy bond and would risk the cohesive integrity of that Iron Phosphate coating.
The West System 422 barrier coat additive sounds like an excellent addition to protect the keel from bumps and scrapes. The coal tar epoxy I used does not really get hard like some epoxy coats do and is, in fact, more "rubbery" in feel and as a result, bangs only dent it a little and do not penetrate through to the Iron. That West System 422 sounds like it will behave in much the same manner.
One guy's opinion,
Charles Brennan
Thanks Charles, I appreciate your detailed explanations!
:D
I am thinking of quizzing West System about this too since 422 is involved. I have yet to contact them directly but have appreciated their various how-to's online: https://www.westsystem.com/instruction/tutorials/
A quick update:
Work, travelling, weather...conspiring to keep me away from the boat, rather than under the boat with the goal of sailing in it.
I had a nice visit with my company's rep at 3M and we narrowed down the product selection to 4000UV or 5200 for the keel bedding joint.
I also had a nice visit with a technical advisor at West Systems concerning the epoxy and barrier coat powder.
I decided to give it a go last night. My leftover resin had crystalized in the container so I gave it a hot tap water bath, changing the water every 15 minutes or so, until it became clear and liquid. I tinted that coat red and did coat #1 on the mating surface last night. Early this morning I got up and mixed a smaller batch with the 422 barrier coat powder which tints the mixed epoxy gray. The epoxy seemed 'runny' but set up fine so I am thinking I will need to lay the keel on its side and coat the 2 big flat 'up' sides (outside and inside slot), flip, and repeat.
Pic is part way though the early session. I like the way the red brush pulled out of the container, leaving it clean for the next batch :) When it pulls out like that, I have a high level of confidence in my measuring (by weight) and mixing.
spot_keel_epoxy1.jpg
Charles is right - the "sand wet epoxy" method and the "Ospho and then coat" method are two different ones. You probably don't need to use Ospho AND sand wet epoxy.
And Charles' keel has seen a lot more SALT water than mine has (none). ;D
Quote from: Noemi - Ensenada 20 on Jul 14, 2023, 01:25 PMCharles is right - the "sand wet epoxy" method and the "Ospho and then coat" method are two different ones. You probably don't need to use Ospho AND sand wet epoxy.
And Charles' keel has seen a lot more SALT water than mine has (none). ;D
Thanks Noemi. Charles has been more than kind in showing his methods, and I appreciate reading your account too. I decided to adopt the West System method which would have me sand or scratch the wet epoxy onto clean bare metal whenever possible and to use their 422 barrier coat additive on the layers between the raw epoxy and final paint. Sometimes it is hard to know what to do when there are two good methods. I just need to keep going at this point otherwise I won't get a sailing season...
I got a little more done today.
I spent a while on a spreadsheet recording what I did so far to predict resin use for subsequent sessions. I was surprised to find out that I will be using about 1500 grams / 3.4 pounds of mixed resin by the time I am done with 2 substantial coats each surface of keel and blade. The section done up until now only represents about 10% of the total area.
I moved the keel from right side up to on its side and mixed the predicted batch. I took a 1.25$ 'dollar store' BBQ cleaning brush and fit it to go inside the keel. It did a nice job up until I tapped it too hard while cleaning it.... I have another one like it and another variation that is more stout I can try later. On the outside I just poured and swirled, on the inside I used a small roller on a long handle. I used a small brush to tip the outside and add resin to the smaller vertical faces.
All and all it went pretty well. I am hoping this sets up enough to apply the barrier coat later tonight so I can flip and repeat 2 coats tomorrow.
spot_keel_epoxy2.jpg
spot_keel_epoxy3.jpg
spot_keel_epoxy4.jpg
I got the barrier coat on late last night. Once it hardens up I will flip it to the other side and repeat the two coats and then let it cure before finish paint and re-install. I still need to do all of the refinishing steps to the swinging portion of the keel. The new lifting cable is sitting in a box next to the new keel bolts.
spot_keel_epoxy5.jpg
I had a chance to text with a local sailing buddy from TSBB over the weekend, I have to admit it put a little more 'gas in my tank' for keeping this project going as he asked 'so when are we going sailing?'.. :)
Yesterday (flip, sand, stage, coat with red-tinted epoxy) and this morning (barrier coat) on port side.
I did better at staging: swept a little, added rosin paper, fixed the BBQ brush to reuse a last time, and added tape to the plywood blocks to prevent excessive sticking. I am debating whether to hang first then paint or paint first then hang. I could also paint the inner slot and around the bolt holes, hang, and do the remaining outside after it's hung.
spot_keel_port1.jpg
spot_keel_port2.jpg
Quote from: Spot on Jul 17, 2023, 10:51 AMI could also paint the inner slot and around the bolt holes, hang, and do the remaining outside after it's hung.
This is what I would do.
Thanks Noemi.
I started scraping and sanding the mating surface on the hull. Would it make sense to coat the hull with epoxy in the area that will receive the sealant on top of the keel? Got a feeling it is thick gel coat in this area...or should one sand it down to the glass and epoxy? No signs of blisters, just don't want to have gone this far and miss an easy upgrade to the keel sealing system.
Spot, If it's not too late, have you considered installing some kind of bushing in the pivot hole? I did this on my MacGregor, I drilled out the pivot hole in the keel (a big pain), made a bushing out of UHMWPE, and glued into the hole with thickened epoxy.
UHMWPE is roughly the same stuff Dyneema is made out of. I used it for a few reasons: low moisture absorption, low coefficient of friction, less brittle than epoxy, but most importantly because it's inexpensive on McMaster and I have a mini lathe in the garage. One potential downside is it's not the best material for the epoxy to bond to. I figured even if it breaks loose, it can't go anywhere, and water getting between plastic and epoxy isn't going to hurt anything.
I went through the trouble because I felt like no coating was going to stand up very long to 600 lbs rubbing back and forth. I considered just going straight thickened epoxy in the enlarged hole, but felt like it might crack under the weight. And did I mention the mini lathe?
Anyway, I can't guarantee it's a good idea, I've only splashed the boat twice. But food for thought.
By the way, thanks for making me aware of this board, not sure how I missed it when I was researching the MacGregor. It seems a little less, um, noisy than some other places.
Spot, Your statement:
"Would it make sense to coat the hull with epoxy in the area that will receive the sealant on top of the keel? Got a feeling it is thick gel coat in this area...or should one sand it down to the glass and epoxy? No signs of blisters, just don't want to have gone this far and miss an easy upgrade to the keel sealing system."
Makes me wonder if you're beginning to over-think this, just a little.
I would not expect there to be signs of blisters, since the keel assembly was previously sealed to the hull.
Sounds like a lot of extra work with no measurable reward.
Consider:
Even if the affected bottom area was cardboard, as long as you had a good sealant and good tensile loading between the keel assembly (all those bolts) and all that reinforcement you've done inside the hull, it would scarcely matter, would it?
While it's easy to succumb to the "Paralysis of Analysis" on a big project, trust in Occam's Razor and "Git'r DONE!!" :D
One guy's opinion,
Charles Brennan
Quote from: Wyb2 on Jul 17, 2023, 11:23 PMSpot, If it's not too late, have you considered installing some kind of bushing in the pivot hole? I did this on my MacGregor, I drilled out the pivot hole in the keel (a big pain), made a bushing out of UHMWPE, and glued into the hole with thickened epoxy.
UHMWPE is roughly the same stuff Dyneema is made out of. I used it for a few reasons: low moisture absorption, low coefficient of friction, less brittle than epoxy, but most importantly because it's inexpensive on McMaster and I have a mini lathe in the garage. One potential downside is it's not the best material for the epoxy to bond to. I figured even if it breaks loose, it can't go anywhere, and water getting between plastic and epoxy isn't going to hurt anything.
I went through the trouble because I felt like no coating was going to stand up very long to 600 lbs rubbing back and forth. I considered just going straight thickened epoxy in the enlarged hole, but felt like it might crack under the weight. And did I mention the mini lathe?
Anyway, I can't guarantee it's a good idea, I've only splashed the boat twice. But food for thought.
By the way, thanks for making me aware of this board, not sure how I missed it when I was researching the MacGregor. It seems a little less, um, noisy than some other places.
I thought about wanting a bigger pivot bolt than the 1/2" that is there...but after looking at the 1/4" bolt holding the 256# blade to the 5/16" eye to the 5/32" cable into the winch...all I want to do now is drill the blade's small bolt hole out to 5/16" and use a 5/16" bolt and call that part good.
Yes, a nice bunch here. Even more fun when you get the usual suspects in the chat... :)
Quote from: Charles Brennan on Jul 18, 2023, 11:18 AMSpot, Your statement:
"Would it make sense to coat the hull with epoxy in the area that will receive the sealant on top of the keel? Got a feeling it is thick gel coat in this area...or should one sand it down to the glass and epoxy? No signs of blisters, just don't want to have gone this far and miss an easy upgrade to the keel sealing system."
Makes me wonder if you're beginning to over-think this, just a little.
I would not expect there to be signs of blisters, since the keel assembly was previously sealed to the hull.
Sounds like a lot of extra work with no measurable reward.
Consider:
Even if the affected bottom area was cardboard, as long as you had a good sealant and good tensile loading between the keel assembly (all those bolts) and all that reinforcement you've done inside the hull, it would scarcely matter, would it?
While it's easy to succumb to the "Paralysis of Analysis" on a big project, trust in Occam's Razor and "Git'r DONE!!" :D
One guy's opinion,
Charles Brennan
And a good opinion at that CB, thanks!
I will take a look at the boat's external keel plate again once I get the old goop scraped and sanded. It doesn't seem like it will take much work to get it clean and flat. From that point I could leave it alone, give a quick coat of something, or overwork it into oblivion... :P
I got some more cleaned up under the keel. I did find a few dry blisters and a bunch of eyelash cracks. Are these real problems or just cosmetic at this point?
It was quick work, after the big/thick chunks were removed with a blade on a multi-tool, the polycarbide 'purple' disk cuts right through the residue. A random orbital sander was used as a final pass. It is smooth but not dead flat. It seems like countersinking the 8 mounting holes a tiny bit might help ease the bolts in and draw some sealant into the holes.
keel first dropped:
spot_s21_22june2023_3.jpg
last night:
spot_keel_under0.jpg
today 1:
spot_keel_under5.jpg
today2:
spot_keel_under7.jpg
The rusty look of the first pic shows that water was getting in between the hull and the keel. So a careful application of sealant is in order.
My opinion is that if the sealant is done right, little blisters & cracks won't be a problem. However, were I you, I would probably rethink this about a million times. Fixit now, though it won't ever be a problem? Or leave it be, and have to take it apart again later?
Is it possible to do that thing where you apply sealant, reinstall everything and tighten almost all the way, let it cure, then snug it up? Works on small things, but I dunno about keels.
Quote from: Noemi - Ensenada 20 on Jul 19, 2023, 01:11 PMThe rusty look of the first pic shows that water was getting in between the hull and the keel. So a careful application of sealant is in order.
My opinion is that if the sealant is done right, little blisters & cracks won't be a problem. However, were I you, I would probably rethink this about a million times. Fixit now, though it won't ever be a problem? Or leave it be, and have to take it apart again later?
Is it possible to do that thing where you apply sealant, reinstall everything and tighten almost all the way, let it cure, then snug it up? Works on small things, but I dunno about keels.
LOL Noemi, you and I overthink alot alike :)
The seal-install-cure-tighten procedure is what I was planning. Since I do not have a factory torque spec, I was planning on making some FR4 board shims at my desired 4000UV/5200 thickness (1/4" / 6mm ?) and tighten all 8 bolts until they hit the shims and have about the same torque. Then let cure, fill in the small holes left by the shims, and add a couple pounds of 'tight' to each bolt. The shims would be well away from the bolts so as not to interfere with the overall squeeze or seal.
I was asked by an ocean-going sailor if I was going to use bottom paint on this repair. I read somewhere that trailer-stored boats don't really need anti-foul and I am in fresh water. Do people have firm opinions one way or the other on this topic? I suppose if I did use some anti-foul, I could trailer down south and sail with CB in one of those FL rallies, if he's willing to associate with the likes of me :P
Spot,
A Centipede was happy, quite, until a Frog in fun,
Said: "Pray which leg comes after which?"
Which raised his mind to such a pitch,
He lay distracted in a ditch.
Considering how to run.
Don't be a Centipede, Man.
Hull seemed to clean up nicely, and all dings appear to be cosmetic.
spot_keel_under5.jpg
If it was me, I'd just hit the dings with Marine-Tex, (purely to hedge my bets) sand them smooth and rely on the sealant to protect everything else.
Your other statements:
"I was asked by an ocean-going sailor if I was going to use bottom paint on this repair. I read somewhere that trailer-stored boats don't really need anti-foul and I am in fresh water."
"Do people have firm opinions one way or the other on this topic?"
Oh, yeah! People DEFINITELY have opinions! I'm not in the anti-fouling paint camp.
"I suppose if I did use some anti-foul, I could trailer down south and sail with CB in one of those FL rallies, if he's willing to associate with the likes of me."
IMHO, anti-fouling is not necessary for the average duration of most Florida vacation cruises.
Urchin has never ever had anti-fouling on her hull, in 46 years.
A buddy had a Florida Keys time-share and for about 20 years, we would drag Urchin (And later on, Short Ribs) to Marathon and put her in the water for a week at a time. After pulling the boat and putting her back on the trailer, there would be an almost clear "slime" on the hull which easily washed off with the soap setting pressure washer of the nearest coin-operated car wash.
On the BEER Cruises and the Florida 120 runs, I don't even get the slight slime, but those cruises are typically only 5 or 6 days. Never even consider bottom fouling on Columbus Day Cruising Regatta weekends. "Marina Mustache" on the waterline from grundgy marinas like Boca Chica, sure, but the hull's fine.
As far as being "willing to associate with the likes of me" I would say: COME ON DOWN!!! :D
You know how I attended the very first BEER Cruise?
I was invited!
All the GRITS (Gulf Regional Interstate Trailer Sailors), Ben, Shane, John, Brian, Dexter and all the other Usual Suspects, directly invited me to attend. Very gracious people.
YOU ARE INVITED!! :)
Hope this clarifies,
Charles Brennan
Quote from: Charles Brennan on Jul 19, 2023, 10:11 PMDon't be a Centipede, Man.
If it was me, I'd just hit the dings with Marine-Tex, (purely to hedge my bets) sand them smooth and rely on the sealant to protect everything else.
I'm not in the anti-fouling paint camp.
YOU ARE INVITED!! :)
Love it CB. Above list are my take-aways :)
The guy who asked me about the paint had similar advice for filling and said to give it a barrier coat before the 5200. He also said to leave the glass spheres out and stick with epoxy and fumed silica (anti-slump).
I ground off some of the old finish on the swinging part of the keel today, two overheat cycles on the grinder. I am just short of 2/3rds done on one side. I should really have a second grinder or see if the disks will work OK at sander/polisher speeds to allow one or two tools to cool off while using the other.
Thunderstorm rolling in and about time to call it a night. Thanks for all of the input, it is appreciated!
I went to look for the rotary (dremel-type) tool, took me about an hour to find it and a suitable bit.
I chased the first couple eyelashes, just opening the crack to receive resin, only to realize that a quick flip of the wrist would pop a small piece off.
Repeat 32x and take an oversized drill bit to add a chamfer to the bolt holes.
Why does one area seem damp? Is the nighttime dew falling under the boat? Grab a worklight and another tool to keep sanding. Check inside boat for water, all seems dry.
Hit the hole again with the poly-carbide disk and it is definitely wet...water in the lam. Does not smell or feel different than fresh water. Other pukas seemed dry except for the one mounting hole.
Suggestions? I had the thought to strip rest of gelcoat in this area and vacuum bag it and see what collects in the trap. I am also thinking this could be a season killer if it's going to take a month or more to dry out.
spot_keel_puka1a.jpg
spot_keel_puka2a.jpg
Welllllll......best to do it right.
If you are up for a bit of a science project, I've had some luck drying out deck core with a vacuum pump. It took some trial and error, and a bit of patience, but less patience than waiting for it to dry naturally.
You'll need a pinless moisture meter so you aren't flying completely blind. A vacuum gauge if the pump doesn't come with one, so you know if you are actually pulling enough vacuum. Sealing up the area in question can be finicky, and you need high ambient temps (probably 85+, higher is better) but if you can get both those things, it does work.
I was able to dry out (meter went from pegged to 15%) half my cabin top core in a few sunny hot days.
Edit: re-reading, I missed that you mentioned vacuum bagging, so maybe you already have everything you need. The only nuance is, I'm thinking of pulling enough vacuum to boil the water out at ambient temp, not trying to suck the liquid out.
Quote from: Wyb2 on Jul 21, 2023, 02:07 PMEdit: re-reading, I missed that you mentioned vacuum bagging, so maybe you already have everything you need. The only nuance is, I'm thinking of pulling enough vacuum to boil the water out at ambient temp, not trying to suck the liquid out.
Yeah, I have the goods but apparently not the skills on any given day, my tale of vacuum woe below:
I was able to pull a vacuum on a small section yesterday, 22 inches Hg below atmospheric pressure. The result was an immediate but small amount of water, 1/4 cup or 10 ml or so. Letting the pump run a couple more hours did not gather more. This morning I decided to grind off all of the gelcoat as I had made it unsmooth digging out the eyelashes/pops. I did not notice any big wet spots as before, but maybe felt one small damp one...? I went and got my finest breather fabric and finest vac bag film and set up to vacuum the whole area. I could not get the bag to draw down past 2 inches Hg, even after adding tape and kneading the mastic and plugging holes inside the boat. I also tried doing smaller areas and removing the quick-release with no improvement. Last picture is after a denatured alcohol wipe after using spec thinner to remove the leftover mastic from the hull. Perhaps I was just dealing with a small local inclusion between gelcoat and fiberglass.
spot_keel_vac1.jpg
spot_keel_vac2.jpg
spot_keel_vac3.jpg
spot_keel_vac3a.jpg
spot_keel_vac4.jpg
My 3M rep at work sent me 2 tubes of black 5200, a little unexpected but very much appreciated!
Is 3/16" (4.8mm) enough for this application? Does it expand any when curing? Checking in hindsight makes my estimate of 2 tubes seem a bit short.
I am planning on using masking tape on the neighboring surfaces and peeling it before it skins over. Any other 5200 tips a novice should know?
I am off to watch some more keel-hanging videos online. I am hoping to barrier coat this area later today.
spot_keel_calc1.jpg
Yeah, it took me a lot of trial and error to pull an effective vacuum on my deck. Some areas I still haven't. You really need close to 29, that brings the boiling point of water down to about 80F.
https://www.engineersedge.com/h2o_boil_pressure.htm
Sound like you're moving on though. That probably makes sense, you aren't dealing with a wet wood core that will rot. As long as you have a clean, dry surface, you are probably in good shape.
Quote from: Wyb2 on Jul 23, 2023, 11:19 AMYeah, it took me a lot of trial and error to pull an effective vacuum on my deck. Some areas I still haven't. You really need close to 29, that brings the boiling point of water down to about 80F.
https://www.engineersedge.com/h2o_boil_pressure.htm
Sound like you're moving on though. That probably makes sense, you aren't dealing with a wet wood core that will rot. As long as you have a clean, dry surface, you are probably in good shape.
Yes, progressing. I had to sand off a little more gelcoat as I had not measured how far the keel went past the fore and aft mounting holes. I am stepping through barrier coats, 2 yesterday and I think 2 more today and that will be done. Since I am using epoxy, I am waiting until the relative humidity dips down for the day before I start. Weather is looking good, warm with no rain.
I think I'll get one more tube of 5200 so I can have a bigger margin of error and inexperience applying it. Someone elsewhere mentioned a notched trowel, like as is done for floor tiling. Do people do this? I was thinking a little high in the center and around the bolts and let it squeeze out a little. I saw a video of a large sailboat boat being fixed from a grounding and they squeezed more out goop resetting the keel than I will apply. I would like to be somewhere in the reasonable middle.
Been progressing slowly on the hull between work, storms, hail, and high humidity.
I have 3 coats of epoxy on the bare spot I made on the hull, 1 neat and 2 with West 422 barrier coat additive. I am hoping to do a final sanding to the area and make up an off white top coat to blend in better with the hull's natural colors.
I had a good chat with tech support at 3M to confirm application details of 5200. The 3/16" planned depth is centered between their suggested min/max of 1/8 and 1/4". Flat tooled or notched trowel is acceptable, user preference. It should stick to itself if a touch-up is needed, one can sand the skin of the old a bit first if desired. I asked about butting up colors to one another (black and white) in case I needed more volume, they do not test the product this way, so they did not have a ready answer. White is easier to get, half the driving miles and almost half the cost compared to black. Since my two tubes should make 3/16"-ish I am not as concerned, would rather not end up with 3/4 of a tube of black for which I don't have an immediate use.
I have also considered a plug in the big hole of the keel stub to prevent glopping down the hole and laying in some 3/16" strips of polyurethane rubber to take up some of the volume in the big flat section to give me a little extra volume to squirt around the bolt holes and tool around the outer edge. Does this sound reasonable or a fool's errand? I am also considering some 3/16" pieces of metal along the perimeter, to prevent me from overtightening the works during the inital assembly (remove after cure and fill holes). The urethane strips would probably limit this as well.
spot_keel_musings1.jpg
I went outside to work on the blade. Everyone in the neighborhood was out doing this and that enjoying the nice weather (partly cloudy, 79 F, 55% RH) and before I knew it, I was going over to the neighbor's gear in tow to help him weld something. I decided to make a push on the blade, finishing up on one side, moving it to a better dolly, and getting into a first coat of epoxy. I thought I'd try a different base color...
spot_keel_blueperiod_1.jpg
Let's see, where did we leave off?
-Cast iron bits painted green
-bottom of boat drilled, tested for water, filled, epoxy/barrier coated
-3M rep for my work got me some 5200(thanks!)
-keel stub got hung today
Top of keel stub and bottom of boat freshly washed for amine blush and sanded.
Aluminum shims placed to maintain 3/16 thickness.
Keel stub was rigged to raise on two jack with a safety line running through the boat (would not be able to hit the ground if jacks failed).
Goop applied, had plenty in 2 tubes with about 1/3 tube squeezeout.
5 of 6 shims removed succesfully after keel was checked for position.
Tape drip edge installed during sudden downpour
Consumed about 8oz paint thinner cleaning up. It gets everywhere as the rumors say...
Consumed 12 oz of barley pop to celebrate after 2-3 glasses of water.
Didn't expect it to take an afternoon but so glad it is done.
Thanks for all of the thoughts and tips!
[url="https://trailersailor.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=2518;type=preview;file"]spot_keelhang1.jpg[/url]
[url="https://trailersailor.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=2520;type=preview;file"]spot_keelhang2.jpg[/url]
[url="https://trailersailor.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=2522;type=preview;file"]spot_keelhang3.jpg[/url]
[url="https://trailersailor.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=2524;type=preview;file"]spot_keelhang4.jpg[/url]
[url="https://trailersailor.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=2526;type=preview;file"]spot_keelhang5.jpg[/url]
That's a lotta 5200!
Looks great!
Looks like it went well. I wish I could actually remember to take pictures during a project, I always think of it at the end.
Is the plan to re-tighten the bolts after cure, or leave it as-is?
Wait, is the 6th shim still in there?
Noemi, thanks.
Quote from: Wyb2 on Sep 12, 2023, 10:58 PMLooks like it went well. I wish I could actually remember to take pictures during a project, I always think of it at the end.
Is the plan to re-tighten the bolts after cure, or leave it as-is?
Wait, is the 6th shim still in there?
Plan was to re-tighten the bolts.
I used some 5-minute epoxy to hold the shims together and in place and made the mistake/good practice of sanding the aluminum before epoxy which gave it amazing grip to the keel. I should have used hot melt glue or double-sided tape. The one did not want to come out and the 'handle' tore off while I was working it. Had I machined 1/4" down to 3/16" instead of stacking 1/8 and 1/16" I may have had an easier time as well.
So yes, there is a 1" x 1/2" x 3/16" piece of layered aluminum embedded about 1/4" deep into the 5200 for the archeologists to find and speculate on sometime in the 23rd century... :)
I got to re-tighten the keel bolts and hang the blade back on the boat today.
It was relatively uneventful, which is good when rigging/lifting heavy objects is concerned. I installed the new cable for the winch and used the winch to help stand the blade on edge and get it into the slot. A floor jack midway got it in rough position. A second jack on-axis with the keel allowed me to lower the midway jack and push/pull until the inner bolt holes saw daylight. A quick wiggle-wiggle with a 3/8" drive extension got the holes in line and the new pivot bolt and fixings were installed. Next steps will be to re-install the trailer and touch up the green paint.