Asym for P21

[talbot]

I just ordered an asymmetrical spinnaker for my P21, with sock. Anyone have experience with this type of sail? Have only used symmetrical chutes before. Any tips appreciated on halyard location, block location, cleat location, launch sequence, etc.

[Riggerdood]

Talbot, we flew an assym on the C&C 115 I crewed on a few years ago, but that was a different animal from what yours will be. No sock, just attach tack to sprit, halyard to head, sheets to clew, extend the sprit, and launch from the bag. When dousing, retract the sprit, blow the tack, ease the halyard, and shove it down through the hatch. Then go below, untangle the mess, and get it back into its bag, ready to launch next time. I was the bow guy, so that was my job. Funny thing is, that was my only experience with a spin, and I've never flown a symmetrical one.

My first question would be are you planning on adding a sprit of some type to your boat, or will you fly it off the pulpit or stemhead? Another option would be an ATN Tacker. Another consideration in rigging it will be if you intend to tack it or gybe it. Either way, you'll need lines led aft for sheets and tackline, and lines led up the mast for halyard and sock tackle, but not sure of that setup as I've never used one.

Looking forward to hearing how it goes!

[talbot]

Don't want to add a bowsprit. Sailmaker says I shouldn't need a pole. Also says they don't think the pulpit is strong enough. So not sure where to fasten the tack line. No deck room forward of the stemhead. Maybe a new small bow eye under the rail. Dont know whether the lazy sheet will run inboard or outboard of the sail. Have to try it and see.

[Riggerdood]

I could be way off on this, but I seem to remember reading that in "The Book", Tom Scott describes a method of anchoring the tack of a spin to the pulpit using reinforcement from the stemhead? Something like that. I know that Ron Dietel flew a large headsail with a similar setup on his P165, but it wasn't a spin per se.

[talbot]

Yeah. I thought about running a Dyneema downhaul from either side of the nav light to the bow eye. Then I'd invent some kind of bracket or shackle for the top of the pulpit that would connect the tack pennant and maybe not rip the nav light off the boat.

[talbot]

Tom Scott put the spinnaker on his P18 14" above the forestay.
Does anyone have any other experience?

The web forums generally say, on a fractional rig, moving much above the forestay may cause the whole rig to fail, because when reaching, there is no lateral support for the mast and the backstay won't help.

My sailmaker is bugging me for measurements, but I'm slowing the process down until I'm sure I won't kill our boat.

Thanks for any help, and happy Thanksgiving.

[talbot]

Update:
Sailmaker is leery of mounting spinnaker halyard much above the shrouds, whatever Tom Scott says.
Jim Taylor, the designer, says it ought to be okay, but would be for down wind only. Risky to carry the sail across the wind, as with a code 0.
Peter Dwyer, the mast builder, says don't do it. Hoist as close to the shrouds as possible, but even then ... Dwyer has never tested the spar for those loads on a P21 rig. If I insist on trying it, go with a small sail.
Bill Porter never responded.
I can't  find anyone who has actually done this mod on a P21.
So at this point, I think I'm going to ask for my deposit back and wait for someone else to do the experiment.

[Riggerdood]

That's a bummer, but better to play it safe. I was really hoping it would work out for you talbot. I'd be happy to do the experiment, but the results wouldn't translate at all because Rum Line is a masthead rig. I'm still mulling it over in my mind tho ...

[Brian S]

Talbot, I'm going to visit a friend who flies an asysm on his P-23 this afternoon. I'll see what he remembers. Sorry I wasn't closer for this pic.

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[talbot]

Looks to me like the halyard is close to the shrouds and that he got the luff clear of the forestay by adding a bowsprit.

I'm going to revisit this in the spring, maybe putting a halyard block on the mast before launch. There are hundreds of used spinnakers floating around. I might try to pick up an old rag for cheap to see if it flies at all and how often I might use it.

[Brian S]

Ok, so Mike with the P-23 definitely has a bowsprit, which is nice. He doesn't specifically remember where the asym halyard is. He said he thinks it "comes out of the mast on the side" which implies an existing halyard coming out of a sheave box, possibly a jib halyard because he does have a CDI jib furler and the boat has internal halyards. Not a whole lot of help for Talbot.

Now, my friend Craig has a Santana 2023R, which is a racing setup for the Santana 2023, and came stock with a retractable sprit built in to the bow. We can clearly see here that his asym halyard goes right up to the masthead, but also it's a pretty high percentage fractional rig, maybe 95%, so there isn't that much mast above the hounds unsupported laterally by the uppers.

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When I got my O'day 192, a previous owner had a small asym labelled a "spanker" by Neil Pryde, the OEM sailmaker for O'day. The halyard ran to a block attached to an eyestrap on the side of the mast, where the through bolt for the masthead cap fitting went through. This was obviously an opportunistic installation, because having the halyard off to the side wouldn't be as good as having it off the front of the mast. And I have a fairly low fractional percentage maybe something like 80%? So, again, the idea of having that mast tip unsupported laterally didn't appeal to me at all. Like Talbot did, I called the guys at Dwyer to ask if their mast could handle it, and of course they said they weren't aware of the 192 having an asym, or knowing if the mast could handle it. Obviously the previous owner went to a NP loft to ask for a cruising asym. Anyway, with all this in mind, I decided I wanted the halyard to be an external block because I don't have internal halyard routing (and easier to install than a new sheave box which wouldn't have been welded in by the factory) so I decided to rivet on a ring plate which had (if memory serves) 3 rivets, to the front of the mast, about 6-8 inches above the hounds to clear the forestay. Here is a rare pic of my boat flying the chute. This was on a light wind day, so I dropped the main to play with the chute. Notice also that this was with the halyard going to the masthead, BEFORE I re-rigged to put it just above the hounds. Also, note how small this asym really is, and that it would be closer to the deck and under more control by the tack line after I did move the halyard down.

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Further rigging and considerations... I have a nice U bolt mounted into the deck just aft of the stemhead fitting. This was originally for an OEM wire luff furler, which I don't use, so it's a very convenient and reasonably strong point to run a block for the tack line. Originally, I ran the tack line to a fairlead mounted to the pulpit, thinking that it would project the tack forward of the forestay. Well, yeah, a little bit, but I always wondered if it would rack the pulpit too much on stronger days. I have since stopped using the fairlead, just allowing the tack to rise up as best it can. I think if the tack gets too high, the sail will start to lose control and oscillate too much.

I also have two sheets. Actually, it's a single long sheet with an alpine butterfly knot tied in the middle, and I use a dyneema soft shackle to attach the loop to the clew. Because I don't have a sprit, with room between the luff and the forestay, I don't gybe the chute through the gap. Rather, I try to fly the clew forward of the luff, gybing "outside." And it never works very well, so pulling all that loop and knot and soft shackle across the forestay is a PITA. Someday I'll have crew that understands what's going on, and has practice, and maybe we will be able to fly it out front and around. But since I usually play with it on light days when I'm sailing solo...

In this picture, you can see the chute flying from the boat. This was after I moved the halyard down, and I use a swiveling cam cleat on the mast (the yellow halyard. Red is jib.) You can also see the yellow tack line running up through that fairlead, and I'm sure understand my concern with its leverage racking the pulpit, or stressing the deck, or I dunno, so I don't run it like this anymore.

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If I were racing a lot, and decided the chute was worth it, I'd make a hamper for it that would sit in the open companionway, and I'd launch and douse to this hamper, with the tack line and halyard long enough to pull the works back into the hamper (how Craig above does it.) I don't see the point of using a sock, especially on a small boat like mine, because in a race, the boat would typically be on starboard tack with the main blanketing the chute as it goes up and comes down.

Sorry I can't go out and measure where I put the halyard - it's all wrapped in padding underneath the tarp for the winter.

Hope any of this helps!
 

[talbot]

Thanks!