Kayak outing

[Captain Kidd]

I actually went out on the kayak on Tuesday!

Robin bought the kayak for me years ago. I've only paddled it maybe twice and that was a looooong time ago! Some of you sailors kayak as well as sail. My SIL and grandson have kayaked some. This has spurred me to thinking about doing some and maybe getting a better kayak. So... since Robin was away, I decided to go out for a short paddle.

I was hoping to get out while Robin was away and test out my new tent. The weather has been hot with little wind, so sailing has been sidelined the last couple weeks. Tuesday night was the last opportunity for a little fun (cat's away, mice will play). I didn't get home until 6:30. I'd been thinking about going all day. Almost canned the idea but I gave myself a push and went. I hooked up the trailer, dug out the kayak from under the house, grabbed a vest PFD and paddle, and took off. It was 7:30 before I left the house, but that would give me an hour to paddle before dark.

I arrived at the ramp and it was pretty busy. Lots of jet skis and other watercraft. I only saw one sailboat on the water. I really didn't have to back down the ramp and wait for anyone; so I pulled around to it, off-loaded the kayak and parked my vehicle. As I was walking back to the kayak, I noticed a guy's trailer tire was pretty low. I hesitated saying anything, didn't want to appear a smart-aleck. Cheerfully, "I guess you noticed your tire is low?" He smiled and nodded. Good deed done for the day.

The first thing I did was wipe off the kayak with a rag I had grabbed. It was terribly dusty from sitting under the house for so long (including my shopvac disaster). I was a little apprehensive about getting started. Kayaks can be tippy and I sure didn't want to make a fool of myself with all the folks that were around. I positioned the kayak just barely into the water, gingerly stepped in, sat down, and gave myself a little shove into the water. I was off.

My short little kayak (an 8' Aruba - Walmart special) is probably just enough to get on the water and not much else. It doesn't track well at all and seems quite tender. That may just be me, since I've never been in any other kayak, but they tell me I need a longer one - 12-14' or more. I've actually been browsing them on Market Place.

I paddled down to the Coast Guard inlet and back, a distance of about 1.3 miles. The water was warm. I mentioned that to a guy on a boat at the dock and he said the water was 90 degrees and that earlier that day it had been 105! Wow! The kayak swung back and forth with each stroke but with a little practice I was able to keep that at a minimum. I crossed paths with a girl in an inflatable kayak. We paused and spoke to each other. She had just bought it and was trying it out for the first time. She said it was 50 bucks. Hey, cheap way to get on the water!

The sun was low and right in my eyes as I headed back to the ramp. Landed and got out with no serious mishaps. Was a little tricky standing up after lifting my legs out of the cockpit and into the water. I'm not as strong as I used to be. I picked up the kayak, hauled it to the top of the ramp, got my vehicle, loaded, and returned home just about dark.

Oh, before I left the park, I drove through the swimming area, got out and walked down to the water's edge. I was hoping to get a colorful sunset but it was rather muted. Still nice. And I was treated to a beautiful view of a half-dozen deer grazing at the park's edge as I was leaving.

All in all a pleasant evening. (and I'm still going to ponder getting a longer kayak).

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[Wolverine]

Lovely! I've collected 4 kayaks over the past 4 years. A fishing kayak with a removable, elevated seat, and 3 sit ins. The water here has been calmn the past few days and I've been itching to get out, however I'm still dealing with a leg injury. Glad to read you pulled it out of storage and got out on the water.

[Captain Kidd]

Lovely! I've collected 4 kayaks over the past 4 years. A fishing kayak with a removable, elevated seat, and 3 sit ins. The water here has been calmn the past few days and I've been itching to get out, however I'm still dealing with a leg injury. Glad to read you pulled it out of storage and got out on the water.

Four kayaks? Wow. I've been browsing. I believe I can get a decent one for $2-300.

BTW: Have you ever participated in the OBX 130? Looks like it's happening in August. I have a sister in Beaufort, NC. It practically goes by her house. One day I may try to make it. Won't be this year though.

[Charles Brennan]

Dale, Yayyy!! 
SOMEBODY finally got Out There and DID something!! 

When I first became interested in kayaks about 25 years ago, I wanted to build one especially suited for Florida waters. I quickly realized, I had no clue as to what that actually meant! 
Plan B was to acquire a kayak, ANY kayak and paddle around in it until I DID know what I wanted.
Got this one for $129 at a BOAT. U.S. clearance sale.
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Named it the Wet Willie after my dog, Willie who had recently died.
It was a 9'6" SOT Mainstream Jazz. I quickly began learning about kayak short-comings.
Kayaks have the same issues with waterline length and performance that sailboats do.
And yes, every stroke caused it to see-saw and track horribly.

BUT!!  There are two reasons for that:
1) Waterline length.
Due to the lack of waterline length, there is not enough displacement, to move the kayak through the water without constant propulsion. In other words, you don't stroke, it comes to a dead stop, until the next stroke.
2) Paddling technique.
The beginner's enthusiasm and lack of "feel" for the kayak's handling characteristics will cause a novice paddler to reach too far forward with the paddle and pull it too far back before lifting the paddle clear of the water, all in an effort to get the maximum thrust.  Digging in too far forward will yaw the hull in the direction of the pull.  Pulling the paddle clear too late, will also continue the yaw.  So the opposite side stroke, causes the novice to want to pull harder to get back on "track" and he aggravates the yawing in the opposite stroke.
This continues on, in what aircraft experts call "PIO" (Pilot Induced Oscillation) where a pilot whip-saws the controls until the plane is out of control; the only solution is to let go of the controls.
It takes both Practice and Faith, to go to short, close to the kayak strokes, to minimize all the yawing, but it DOES work.

Your 8 foot kayak is indeed tender, since you are a significant fraction of it's max weight capacity.
Just like any sailboat hull has initial stability and secondary stability, your kayak has those two points as well. Unfortunately, close to max capacity, puts the hull's initial stability lower in the water than the designers intended. The secondary stability characteristic is also impeded by not having as much lateral displacement, owing to the lower position in the water.
I had all the same issues in Wet Willie that you described, and my solution is what everyone at the ramp was telling you about:
A longer kayak, like the Mango Smoothie which was a Perception Access and 11½ feet long; two feet longer than my first kayak.
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WHAT a difference! 
Two strokes, and it would glide for many feet, instead of stopping dead.
MUCH better tracking, owing to the longer waterline length.
MUCH better stability, owing to its greater displacement and floating on the designer's lines for initial and secondary stability.

It does, however, come with a price.
Not just cost for all the extra plastic, but weight.
The two kayaks pictured are 29 pounds and 55 pounds respectively and which I quickly got up to 60 pounds, by adding in kayak fishing gadgets and other "improvements". 

Like this one:
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https://adventurecanopies.com/
Greatly increases endurance, when it starts getting hot out there; and a necessity for guys that keep getting hunks of cancerous tissue intermittently carved off them, for a lifetime of sun/skin abuse.
Major Game Changer down here in the Sunny South.  Notice the taper up forward; it removes any potential interference with the paddles (and also casting with fishing rods).
Highly recommended.

"Was a little tricky standing up after lifting my legs out of the cockpit and into the water. I'm not as strong as I used to be."
For all us "Kayakers Of A Certain Age", the usual procedure is to swing the legs over the side, brace one hand on the side of the hull and hold the paddle vertical against the kayak and using it to help pull yourself up on the one hand, as you push up off the hull with the other hand.

A few opinions in no particular order:
1) Get the best weight to capacity ratio you can.
For example, instead of a 8 foot boat with a 260lb capacity for (say) a 180lb paddler which is 70% of the kayak's capacity, try (for example) a 12 foot Tarpon 120 with a capacity of 350 pounds for around 50% capacity.
Can we improve that ratio? 
Certainly!    But it will cost you in weight.
After all, you still have to drag that thing around, even if only to get it out from under the house.
Take a good hard look, at the heft of the guys who are recommending 14 foot (or more!) kayaks and then decide.
You saw a weight change of 29 to 55 pounds for just a few feet more of length; now imagine the weight change, for double the length (16 feet). 

2) In this size range,  FaceBook Marketplace and Craigslist are your friend.
Many kayaker's own several kayaks, often for varying functions (touring, versus whitewater, versus fishing, etc.) and they sell them often for quite reasonable prices, so they can get the next kayak that has caught their interest.  Take the same care evaluating the kayak, that you would for a sailboat purchase; in this case, significant hull scrapes (especially in Oyster Country!)  and for cracks in the scupper holes and general condition, etc.

3) Guys our age do far better on SOT's (Sit On Top) than Sit-In kayaks (although they are sometimes more stable) since it's easier to climb off, rather than out of, a cockpit.

4) Carbon Fiber Paddles.
Another Game Changer, for me.
After getting over the initial Freak-Out!! Of a paddle that cost more than my kayak,    I was impressed with the increase in the control,  paddling speed and (more importantly!) longevity, that allowed me to keep up with my Son, who I am spotting a coupla decades, on. Plus, the carbon fiber blades are tough enough for an Old Guy to use as a staff, to stand up again, after paddling long distances.

5) Notice the kayak cart wheels in the middle pic?
Great for getting from the vehicle to the shore, or for going ashore, (like on a river bank, or lake edge) and not dragging around 60+ pounds by hand which gets old, quickly.

Hope this helps,
Charles Brennan 

[Captain Kidd]

Hope this helps,
Charles Brennan 

Great info! Thanks!

Doug and I had a great conversation a few weeks ago and he shared some of the same info. Some of it is instinctive but some has to be learned. He too talked about paddling technique. I "instinctively" tried to paddle with deep and long strokes. I quickly saw the shortfall of that method. Got better as I went along.

The one thing that kayaking has going for it is the simplicity of just getting out on the water. I like that. As to SOT or SI, I'm thinking the latter.

I'll keep the forum posted if I decide to buy one. There are a lot listed on MP and many are close and affordable.

Quick edit: I've had 5 skin cancer surgeries and go about every 3-6 months to get checked, depending on what was found the previous visit.

[Wolverine]

Capt Kid,

I bought all of them used. I needed 4 for when the grabdsons come visit.

I was planning on going to the OBX130, I can sail there from my house, but other plans, (the wife's) killed it. Maybe the next year they have it.

[Doug SC]

I did it again and failed to save a draft I spent a considerable time writing. Duh! I wish this site automatically saved a draft like the paddling site I post to has done for many years. I am so use to it that I forget to on here. So here is a shorter version if I can successfully condense the previous disappeared post I thought I had posted before supper tonight.

Went to the club to sail but forget the free club sponsored fishing tournament for law enforcement employs. We did the same last month for Wounded Warriors. the docks were packed with power boats when I got there so did some needed maintenance on sailboats instead of sailing on one of the few decent days with wind.

CB as usual posted some good info. Carbon paddles are great! I own four. Bigger plastic boats are heavy. Fiberglass boats are lighter. My 17' 4" sea kayak weights 52 pounds. SOT are easier to mount and dismount, but it's near impossible to find one made of fiberglass.

Everyone thinks they know how to paddle right from the get-go. I know I did. They are wrong. I was wrong. It's not about the arms.

Paddle instructors talk about maintaining a paddle box. Visualize your elbows at your side, forearms parallel with the ground holding the paddle's shaft in front of you. It forms a rectangle. If when you paddle it becomes a trapezoid you are using just your arms. This isn't efficient. What you want to use is your core and leg muscles. You don't just sit and paddle with your arms. If your elbow on the side, you have the paddle blade in the water goes behind your back you aren't using your core.

This is what works for the best paddling efficiency, you maintain the paddle box by rotating at the waist. At the same time, you push your foot against the foot peg on the same side as the paddle. You first rotate forward and stab the blade in near where your foot is. Then you rotate back keeping the paddle relatively close to the boat and take the paddle out when it reaches your hip. This sets you up for the paddle stroke starting at the foot on the other side of the kayak and repeat. This keeps the basic paddle box shape except perhaps as the paddle enters the water. But you get the basic idea that the box shape means you are rotating at the waist.

One way to capture how this feels and to cause you to rotate at the waist is to fix your eyes on the paddle blade and rotate your body to keep your eye on the blade as it comes back to your hip. Of course, you will keep your eye looking in front while paddling but this is a good way to check to see if you were really paddling with your core. If you catch yourself pulling your elbow back do this to get back to using your core. If you have always paddled with your arms realize that it is a hard habit to break and will take considerable attention to become used to using your core.

Now why do you use your leg to push against the foot peg on the side of the paddle stroke? You do this because it transfers the power of the paddle to the hull of the boat using the power of your leg muscles. The upside is your legs don't tend to go to sleep while sitting in the kayak for a long time and your butt doesn't tend to get as sore either. Your arms don't get so tired, and you aren't wasting the energy inputs you are expending.

There is another factor to consider and that is paddle length. A paddle that is too long will tend to cause the boat to yaw more because it is farther from the center line of the boat. One that is too short, and you will be hitting your hand on the side of the boat. They do make adjustable paddles. Most of my paddles are 205 to 210 for my sit in sea kayaks. A sit on top may require a slightly longer paddle like 220 to 230, but this depends on how high off the water you are and how long your torso is.

This is the short version. I hope I remember to post it! Duh!!

[Doug SC]

I should add that you push with your leg as you rotate the paddle to where you exit at the hip, you then relax that leg. You then begin pushing with the other leg as you begin to rotate toward your hip on that side. I wasn't sure I was very clear on that sequence.

[Captain Kidd]

You guys are great! Such detailed and lengthy replies!

Doug, no doubt I was paddling with my arms. I remembered your advice from our conversation but just couldn't figure it out. If and when I get back out, I will work on it some more.

My little 8' is basically only good to get you out on the water. Wouldn't want to try and go far. I got a little itch for something more suitable.

[Frank B.]

Doug, don't feel bad, I did it too.  I agree about that saving the draft, at a certain age that would be great. I thought I hit the post button but who knows.   I have been on both extremes of the kayaking continuum.  I had an inflatable for a while, hated it, gave it away. A few float trips with the boy scouts where we rented standard kayaks. Then the epitome of the sport.  My BIL, who is famous for impulsive and extravagant purchases, bought a Hobie Mirage Pro Angler.  I borrowed it and used it twice fishing in the crooked Island area just east of Tindall AFB.  Caught a few fish as it certainly should be when you are fishing from a $5K kayak.  Pedal power and stick rudder just doesn't seem to fit the kayak protocol. Who needs paddles? My two uses I think are about 2/3rds of its total use to date and it has been about five years.

[Doug SC]

The Hobi pedal drives are great for fishing and people with upper body joint problems. They are fast too. Brian Schulz, the owner of https://capefalconkayak.com/ that sells skin on frame plans for kayaks, canoes, and supplies put a pedal drive in one of his skin on frame canoes because of a shoulder injury. He is an interesting guy with many innovative ideas. I have enjoyed his many videos. I have it in the back of my mind to make a skin on frame canoe, or kayak as they are very light and tough. I am getting to the age that light weight is more and more attractive!

These two videos demonstrate just how tough they are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xb_21OLjHE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ygLdbvXlAI

Hey Captain Kidd, this might be the best solution if you are interested in building another boat. I don't know why I haven't already thought to suggest this. He has a comprehensive instruction video course that you can also purchase. My sailing friend Rusty has the course, and I am considering building a skin on frame when he gets started on one so I can piggyback on what he is doing.

[Charles Brennan]

Once more, Guys:
Every time you stop to think, Press Ctrl A (select all), then Ctrl C (copy).
Something blows up, just hit Ctrl V (paste).

You hit the Enter key every time you get to the end of a sentence, no? 
Ctrl A, Ctrl C is a good next thing to hit before continuing to type.

Early on with my sailboat, I decided that anything that was a chore and had to be done more than three times in a row, was something in dire need of automation.
Just as true for Internet posts, in a Glitchy World. 

One guy's opinion,
Charles Brennan

[Riley Smith]

The larger Pelican yak I took last time was a marked improvement over the little green one designed specifically to give people like me a dunking. I prefer not to swim with the sharks and have plans with the bigger yak in the near future. One thing on it that needs improving is the seat and I'll have to devise some redneck engineering to keep the kink out of my back. Sooner or later I plan on fishing the river channel on the other side of the bar with it. BIG fish there. Including sharks. And SOMEBODY was going to loan me a Penn fishing rig; now I've got to remember who. Yeah, you can't beat it for simplicity and lack of complications. If it'll ever stop lightning and raining here I MIGHT get to go again. There are lots of nooks and crannies in the lower marsh to check out. To go with that I might have to invest in a waterproof camera case because I KNOW I'll want the camera with me.

[Krusen]

When creating a long post on any internet site, I initially create it with word, and hit Control S regularly, to assure that it is permanent, up to date.

Then, cut and paste (Control C, Control V) the document to the web site.

Colder water up here, I have done more canoe than kayac.  Much prefer canoe, but that is mostly a 2 person activity. 

Last time out, found that the motions are no longer in my tolerable range, gave up after about half a mile.  The owner shifted to the "front" seat, and paddled solo for an hour or so, as there was little wind to blow him around.

He would not have pulled the canoe from the attic of his garage without me, or even gone.  At the river, since the wind had died, he was comfortable solo.  Getting the canoe off, then back on the roof of his car without scratching the car was easy for two of us.

While he was solo, I enjoyed watching shore birds, plus an eagle, so was not bored.  A couple arrived with a brand new canoe, and needed some advise on removing it from the roof of their car, the salesman at the store had put it there with their help.

The worst of the trip was admitting to my self that canoeing had ended for me.

No Longer KRUSE"N

[Wolverine]

We had an aluminum canoe when the girls where young. We took it to northern Wisconsin every year. At home they took turns with me in the Mid American Canoe Race on the Fox River until they married and moved out. We canoed the Fox River from the IL/WI boarder to where it merges with the IL River in Ottawa, IL. That was completed in stages. The canoe now resides in our middle daughters garage. She and her husband go on a trip every year with friends. Canoes are much better for camping and carrying gear, but kayaks are more nimble ans easier to transport/portage.
The boundary waters of Minnesota are still on my bucket list.