Goldilocks and the Three Boats

[FortyFour]

Once upon a time, there was a sailor who loved being on the water, no matter the size or shape of the vessel. It began with the humble sunfish- actually, before that there were kayaks and canoes, and surfboards- what exhilaration playing on the wind, heeling and trimming the sheet to gain control. Then came the Precision 18. This seemed a great boon and an answer to much dreaming and longing. Now distances could be covered, and shelter also gained, even the ability to get a night of sleep at some remote mooring, other than the home cove.

The years went by, and many adventures were had. Along ocean coasts, crossing bays, cozy gunk holes, Great Lakes, island hops, all sorts of voyages. Even though it was a bit lonely, almost always single handing, and it was a tiny bit fatiguing, driving the trailer and raising the mast up and down, and bending sails, and all that goes with the weekend road warrior water way. Finally the urge to take longer voyages, on bigger boats came on too strongly to be denied. That impulse was met by a rigorous course on a yacht of sorts, giving knowledge, experience, and certifications necessary to advance the quest.

But lo and behold, now a new problem arose. The Precision-18, steady sloop companion, which served so well for many an outing, seemed small, and tender- saying nothing of the make-shift accommodations.  But anything bigger required a shit-ton of money, and even more, a port to depart from, and lifts to facilitate transitions. Whereas up to this point it wasn't so bad being many miles and hours from open waters, now it seemed all options to expand had problems. Chartering was prohibitively expensive, and single handing was not even permitted in most cases.  To buy a beater was risky on multiple fronts, now that the dangers and challenges of prolonged cruising were more familiar.

Back and forth the sailor went with this dilemma, like some tacking sea-dog trying to make headway beating against a sporty breeze towards some elusive shore. The arguments were predictable and tedious...Forgo ambition and settle for the boat at hand and waters in reach? Give up independence and crew on somebody else's boat? Push the envelope, and risk safety? Or, go into debt, perhaps life-shock, trying an avenue that the aging mariner knew might be difficult to maintain. To say nothing of the matter of having to sell an older used boat if and when that day of reckoning had come to pass.

Surely this is a familiar tale. No doubt many of you have yourselves lived it. Does anybody have an interesting twist on how it turns out, or resolves?

[tjspiel]

Kind of in the same boat, - literally and figuratively. I also own a P-18 and sailed lots of boats before and plenty since getting it.

I'm awash in opportunities to sail but time and money are limiting factors.

I've crewed on multi-day charters several times and will be leaving to crew on another boat in Croatia in a little over a week.

But my family isn't all that into it and spending the money and time to get my own chartering certification would probably be a waste.

Bigger trips like the one to Croatia will be few and far between because just getting there costs a bunch. Can't really justify it more than once every few years or so.

The city lakes where I keep my P-18 only allow boats up to 22 ft. Though there's some good boats in that size range, it would be nice to have something bigger. But that means getting a slip on a larger body of water. And anything nearby is outrageously expensive. It would take about a 90 minute trip to get to a marina with slips I could afford.

Then there's the question of how big if I were to get a larger boat. A built-in head would be nice. That might actually get my wife to go more often (no pun intended). I have a friend with a 34 footer but he wants to downsize since it's difficult to single-hand and because it's 4 hours away, getting crew isn't always easy. The P-18 is good for single-handing and not hard to maintain. 

So I really don't know what to do either.

Right now I'm standing pat with the P-18 on its mooring ball in the little lake nearby. I might start racing Ensigns occasionally on Wednesday nights this Summer and there's youth sailing on Thursdays where I often help out.

Maybe the path forward will become more clear when I get closer to retiring but I have a feeling it won't.

[Straander]

I've been in your position for about a year now myself @FortyFour. been dreaming of exploring the salish sea in a larger, more comfortable and safer boat then my P165, and especially of being able to just hop aboard and just go sailing without the rigmarole of trailering then stepping a mast twice for each trip.

My situation is a little different in that there are numerous marinas within a 30 minute drive of me. But in a city with as much money as seattle has, those things are very much priced specifically for the people making that serious money. I've started reaching out to the few people I know who are in to sailing (including a couple I specifically got in to sailing since my P165 was their first time ever on a sailboat) about the idea of splitting ownership and marina costs for a 21-27' boat. But so far nothing has gotten any traction. Wait times for Marina slots are in the multi-year range here as well, so the logistics get in to a complicated chicken and the egg thing where I can't get a large boat until I have a place to Moore it, but I cant keep a slot at a marina without a boat to put in it.

[tjspiel]

I've been in your position for about a year now myself @FortyFour. been dreaming of exploring the salish sea in a larger, more comfortable and safer boat then my P165, and especially of being able to just hop aboard and just go sailing without the rigmarole of trailering then stepping a mast twice for each trip.

My situation is a little different in that there are numerous marinas within a 30 minute drive of me. But in a city with as much money as seattle has, those things are very much priced specifically for the people making that serious money. I've started reaching out to the few people I know who are in to sailing (including a couple I specifically got in to sailing since my P165 was their first time ever on a sailboat) about the idea of splitting ownership and marina costs for a 21-27' boat. But so far nothing has gotten any traction. Wait times for Marina slots are in the multi-year range here as well, so the logistics get in to a complicated chicken and the egg thing where I can't get a large boat until I have a place to Moore it, but I cant keep a slot at a marina without a boat to put in it.

Not sure how things compare in Seattle but in some marinas on Lake Superior you can purchase a slip rather than renting. I'm sure there are a bunch of monthly service charges still involved but often the slips and the boats within them go up for the sale at the same time.

Or even if someone is renting a slip, they'll offer to include the remainder of the season's slip rental fees with the purchase of the boat.

Around here at least, it's not hard to find good deals on boats. People decide they're done with them and they knew going in that boat ownership was bit of black hole money wise. So they'll take a loss rather than continuing to pay the expenses of storing and maintaining them.

Slips are something else entirely. They're not bad (relatively) in less populated areas, but in large cities and suburbs, the costs are ridiculous.

[DBthal]

Straander,

What about yard storage (similar to Ron D) for your current or a larger trailerable boat. You would keep it stored on the trailer in the marina's yard with mast raised, then splash the boat at the marina's ramp when you want to go sailing. Minimal rigging required.

[Straander]

I didnt know slip ownership was a thing. I did some searching around seattle and it looks like they start at $115,000 for a 26' slip and go up from there. Is that similar to lake superior prices?
Since its something that I'd need to take out a loan for, I dont think that's going to work with splitting it with someone liked I planned to do with a rental marina slip.

I do regularly browse the craigslist and there definitely are good deals on boats in my price range pretty often. Its just very rare to see one that says its in a slip and that its transferable. If slips are mentioned at all, its usually to say not transferable.

But I'm only interested in boats that come with a trailer anyway and nearly all of those I see are being sold on the trailer with no slip associated with the purchase. I dont want to risk getting in to ownership of a boat where I would have no backup plan for it if I loose the moorage. I already see plenty of "Free boat, must be moved from slip within 24 hours" deals on craigslist to know that that is a real concern.

Not sure how things compare in Seattle but in some marinas on Lake Superior you can purchase a slip rather than renting. I'm sure there are a bunch of monthly service charges still involved but often the slips and the boats within them go up for the sale at the same time.

Or even if someone is renting a slip, they'll offer to include the remainder of the season's slip rental fees with the purchase of the boat.

Around here at least, it's not hard to find good deals on boats. People decide they're done with them and they knew going in that boat ownership was bit of black hole money wise. So they'll take a loss rather than continuing to pay the expenses of storing and maintaining them.

Slips are something else entirely. They're not bad (relatively) in less populated areas, but in large cities and suburbs, the costs are ridiculous.

[FortyFour]

This is not a slight against the ASA Bareboat certification, it is a program that offers a full experience and exposure to cruising essentials, but the uncomfortable (for many) fact that it's a lifestyle primarily for the wealthy- including sampling global paradises- is kinda downplayed.

Long before my recent search for a good find and good fit, I've been pursuing an answer to the question of what boat is minimally viable for extended sea travel, and more than one captain has said to me, "If the boat can be "trailer-sailed" it's not really sea-worthy in all conditions I'm bound to face.  FWIW.

[tjspiel]

This is not a slight against the ASA Bareboat certification, it is a program that offers a full experience and exposure to cruising essentials, but the uncomfortable (for many) fact that it's a lifestyle primarily for the wealthy- including sampling global paradises- is kinda downplayed.

Yes, though I think it's possible to economize. There's a number of people in our sailing club that have gotten certified and they gain experience by skippering one of the boats on the annual Apostle Islands/lake Superior Trip. Not exactly exotic and they cram as many people as they comfortably can on those boats for 3 days to keep costs down. It's more like camping.

There's reasonable places to charter in Texas and Florida. Traverse City on Lake Michigan is supposed to pretty cool.

The sailing club itself is cheap. $275 a season with access to 18 small boats (dinghies).

Some people have leveraged the sailing club chartering experience into bigger adventures including delivering boats from one location to another.

But those folks tend to be people that have very flexible schedules, - which is not me.

I had dreams of getting certified and chartering a boat for my family in the BVI but that's not going to happen. And I'm not really that interested in a long passage. So Croatia might just be the Apex of my international sailing adventures and that's OK.

[Shesaidno]

What a great topic.  I've had my P165 since 2017 and after a couple years, I started at least thinking about a larger and faster boat. My complaints seemed reasonable. The P165 was really hard for me sleep on when at an anchorage. The wing keel seemed a compromise, as I was consistently out-pointed by most other boats. So here is my search and where I am today. 

First was a Farr 33, 1984 or 86?  Fast for sure, if you know Bruce Farr the designer. Much easier to sleep, although accommodations are spartan. Located in Long Beach harbor, much closer than Ventura, although port traffic is horrible. A price I could handle, and the seller agreed to co-pay slip fees with me for one year if I would let him use it on occasion. He had taken good care of it. I sailed it twice. Not bad and could be single handed, but I felt it needed new sails. $$$$  I looked at the huge (to me) mast, then I thought about what it must take to remove it??? I checked out slip fees, about $450 a month and another 75 or so to clean the bottom. Oh, and the marina it was at, even though it was moored there, said if I wanted to stay there, I had to have a full inspection due to its age, meaning having it hauled out, plus inspection. I asked myself too, what happens when I pass into sailboat heaven. I already have a lot of STUFF and this would not make it easy for my wife or kids, none interested in sailing. Boat Pass One

Boat 2. Ultimate 20. Again, a nice fast boat, 20 feet long, I think I could single hand although it had many more controls plus a spinnaker. But when I sailed on it, while it was faster than my P165, I just didn't feel that another knot or two plus better pointing was worth $18,000. The cabin was even more spartan and of course much smaller than the Farr. Actually the P165 cabin is better in my opinion. Pass Boat 2.

Boat 3. A friend of mine was big into catamarans and let me sail on his whenever I wanted. They are fast, and I found an older A-CAT, modified for foiling, for $3000.  I bought it, figuring, wow, foiling would be so cool!!!  Sailed it five or six times and felt like I was never in control, and that was without foiling! And where is the potty? Sold it for $3000. Fortunately, I had kept my P165.

Boat 4, during the 2022 Potter Cruiser Challenge in Monterey, one of my sailor friends said he was thinking about a Beneteau First 21. Fast boat, reasonable accommodations--and still trailerable. So when one came available in Arizona last December, I went to see it.  Needed a lot of work including new paint. No electronics whatsoever. Looking at the size of it, I realized no way I could pull it with my SUV. And do I want to spend 2 years getting this to be the boat of my dreams or do I want to sail. I wanted to sail. Pass on boat 3.

So I'm keeping She-said-no, my P165. But hey, I am always keeping my options open!!!   

[Brian N.]

Every boat will be a compromise in some aspect, either sailing qualities, mooring/ slip space, accommodations, upkeep/repairs and so on. I've been happy with the P165, as it has fit my type of sailing for the last 15 years. I also don't feel guilty if it goes unused for a week or so. I've crewed on Ensigns, rented boats from 34 feet to 14, sailed Hobie cats really fast and each had its attractions. My favorite was always "in the moment" of sailing that particular boat at the time. My best night sleep was in a marina on a 34 foot boat. Biggest thrill was flying along with my daughter on the Hobie. Toughest was during a gusty rainstorm. Most memorable was eating chicken-in-a-bucket with my family on a bumpy, windy sunset sail. So best boat is my current one the P165, it checks most of the boxes. And because of where I live, Long Island, there are lots of rental options if I so desire for a change of sailing venue.

[tjspiel]

Boat 4, during the 2022 Potter Cruiser Challenge in Monterey, one of my sailor friends said he was thinking about a Beneteau First 21. Fast boat, reasonable accommodations--and still trailerable. So when one came available in Arizona last December, I went to see it.  Needed a lot of work including new paint. No electronics whatsoever. Looking at the size of it, I realized no way I could pull it with my SUV. And do I want to spend 2 years getting this to be the boat of my dreams or do I want to sail. I wanted to sail. Pass on boat 3.

So I'm keeping She-said-no, my P165. But hey, I am always keeping my options open!!!   

There was a blue Beneteau first 210 on the mooring ball next to me a couple of years ago. Not sure if the 21 and the 210 are the exact same boats but pictures of a 21's interior look less spartan than the 210, or maybe the owner of that particular 21 spruced it up a bit.

That was my only knock against the 210, - the spartan interior. Too much plastic showing. As much as we make fun of the monkey fur on the Precisions, it beats an interior that's 80% white fiberglass.

Otherwise it was a gorgeous boat, - and fast. I was jealous. I have a thing for blue boats.

This one was pretty pristine and had a nice new Torqueedo on that back of it.

But the owners rarely sailed it. More often than not they'd just motor out to the middle of the lake and drop an anchor.  Kind of a waste. The owners must have come to the same conclusion. They didn't come back next year and we spotted the boat in local adds. It was up for sale but too spendy for me. And I also have a problem with too small of a tow vehicle.

[Riggerdood]

Interesting topic. I loved the DS: easy to tow, rig up, and sail. Centerboard only, no stub keel, so could sail in literally inches of water, very helpful in FL. After I started camp cruising though, it got real tiresome turning it into a camper every evening, and back into a sailboat every morning, so I went looking for something with a cabin. Found the RS22, and I love it. She just checks a lot of boxes for the kind of sailing I do. Tom, she does have a cabin that I guess would be considered spartan (no monkey fur), but I find it cozy nonetheless. I guess maybe because I've never had one that did have a liner.

[tjspiel]

I didnt know slip ownership was a thing. I did some searching around seattle and it looks like they start at $115,000 for a 26' slip and go up from there. Is that similar to lake superior prices?

There are no large cities on Lake Superior.

Duluth, MN has under 90,000 and Thunder Bay, Ontario has a little over 100,000. I believe those two are the largest. There's another Canadian city with about 70,000 and everything else is pretty small.

Given the relative remoteness from major population centers, the slips are much cheaper. Maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the cost you'd see in Seattle. But you can only sail for half the year if that.

And I'm not quite clear on what owning slip actually gets you because I'm sure you're still paying fees to the marina for dock/facility maintenance, winter storage, pull outs, - all that stuff. These aren't trailered boats.

The slip is an asset you can sell but I don't know how much they appreciate. So if the monthly interest on your loan + the monthly marina fees exceed the cost of just renting the slip, it doesn't make any sense.

But if you're rich and pay cash for it or just keep it a long time maybe it works out.

[Straander]

I see ultimate 20's for sale around here often, and pretty reasonably priced. There's a list of boats I probably would have ended up with instead of the P165 If I had bought an Outback instead of a Crosstrek:

Hunter 18.5
Ultimate 20
Santana 20
Catalina 18
Potter 19
Montgomery 17

Not necessarily because they'd be better boat then the P165, but because they actually come up for sale locally regularly. I do really pine for the Hunter 18.5 sometimes. More Freeboard, twice the ballast, a sink and oven. It would be such a huge step up for sailing in the ocean in terms of confidence and for amenities.

Speaking of which, how come there has never been a Hunter board in these forums? They seem extremely popular (At least in the PNW) and usually sized easily in the trailer-launch realm.

What a great topic.  I've had my P165 since 2017 and after a couple years, I started at least thinking about a larger and faster boat. My complaints seemed reasonable. The P165 was really hard for me sleep on when at an anchorage. The wing keel seemed a compromise, as I was consistently out-pointed by most other boats. So here is my search and where I am today. 

First was a Farr 33, 1984 or 86?  Fast for sure, if you know Bruce Farr the designer. Much easier to sleep, although accommodations are spartan. Located in Long Beach harbor, much closer than Ventura, although port traffic is horrible. A price I could handle, and the seller agreed to co-pay slip fees with me for one year if I would let him use it on occasion. He had taken good care of it. I sailed it twice. Not bad and could be single handed, but I felt it needed new sails. $$$$  I looked at the huge (to me) mast, then I thought about what it must take to remove it??? I checked out slip fees, about $450 a month and another 75 or so to clean the bottom. Oh, and the marina it was at, even though it was moored there, said if I wanted to stay there, I had to have a full inspection due to its age, meaning having it hauled out, plus inspection. I asked myself too, what happens when I pass into sailboat heaven. I already have a lot of STUFF and this would not make it easy for my wife or kids, none interested in sailing. Boat Pass One

Boat 2. Ultimate 20. Again, a nice fast boat, 20 feet long, I think I could single hand although it had many more controls plus a spinnaker. But when I sailed on it, while it was faster than my P165, I just didn't feel that another knot or two plus better pointing was worth $18,000. The cabin was even more spartan and of course much smaller than the Farr. Actually the P165 cabin is better in my opinion. Pass Boat 2.

Boat 3. A friend of mine was big into catamarans and let me sail on his whenever I wanted. They are fast, and I found an older A-CAT, modified for foiling, for $3000.  I bought it, figuring, wow, foiling would be so cool!!!  Sailed it five or six times and felt like I was never in control, and that was without foiling! And where is the potty? Sold it for $3000. Fortunately, I had kept my P165.

Boat 4, during the 2022 Potter Cruiser Challenge in Monterey, one of my sailor friends said he was thinking about a Beneteau First 21. Fast boat, reasonable accommodations--and still trailerable. So when one came available in Arizona last December, I went to see it.  Needed a lot of work including new paint. No electronics whatsoever. Looking at the size of it, I realized no way I could pull it with my SUV. And do I want to spend 2 years getting this to be the boat of my dreams or do I want to sail. I wanted to sail. Pass on boat 3.

So I'm keeping She-said-no, my P165. But hey, I am always keeping my options open!!!   

[Straander]

I have never before seen a marina with that kind of boat storage. I did some google searching, but maybe I'm not using the correct terms that get any results.

Not sure I'd be interested though. My setup/teardown is usually less then 30 minutes. With still having to trailer launch each trip, I'd be paying a monthly fee to only remove 1/2 of the hassle of going out on a sail, and I'd lose the option to launch from different locations to boot. And I'd still need to take it home every time I work on it (which is very often in the summer)

Straander,

What about yard storage (similar to Ron D) for your current or a larger trailerable boat. You would keep it stored on the trailer in the marina's yard with mast raised, then splash the boat at the marina's ramp when you want to go sailing. Minimal rigging required.

edit: I had NO IDEA you could attach images in the new forum because I've only been using the "quick reply" option. Anyway, looks like dry storage is available at the Edmonds marina (very near my place). But their updated website lists a 1.5 year wait for it :<
Not sure how the boats in dry storage actually get down to the water.

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