Paging Charles Brennan

[Ed]

Hello Charles, I'm looking for an Amazon shopping list for the new boat.  Not sure if I want AGM or Lithium this time around, but I figure you can edumacate me.  Running lights/Nav Lights/phones via USB C/VHS radio charging via cigarette lighter plug/Tiller Pilot/water pump off 10 gallon blivet/car cooler using cigarette lighter plug.  So what Amazon products do you recommend as far as battery amperage, flexible solar panel, and controller?  Getting problems fixed little by little.  New trailers have gone up a pile since the last time I bought one.  Thanks for your help, again.

[Spot]

The question about how big a battery and how big a solar panel is better answered once the math is done for the boat's 'energy budget', a spreadsheet that reconciles inputs (solar, alternator) with draws (lights, charging, other equipment) so there is a grounded estimate to use along with battery capacity.

Here is a snippet from my 'budget' with a link to the background information.

https://www.vanlifeoutfitters.com/sizing-your-electrical-system-load-calculations/            
            
12 Volt DC Loads            
Load   Amp Draw    Estimated Hours Used Per Day   Estimated Consumption (Amp Hours)   
Garmin   1   9   9   avg .5a max 2a
Anchor light   0.1   8   0.8   led (incandescent=1a each)
nav lights 4x   0.4   2   0.8   led (incandescent=1a each)
cabin lights   0.4   1   0.4   2x bright LED
small fan   0.41   8   3.28   high: 0.41A, low: 0.28A.  Ultimate™ Fan from by Caframo
cell phone charger   2.5   2   5   
      Total 12 Volt DC   19.28   
            
Charging            
Type   Amp Draw    Estimated Hours Used Per Day   Estimated Gains(Amp Hours)
                Solar 50w   2.5   8   20   
NOTE: there are many factors that determine how much energy your solar panels will provide to your system - everything from the part of the day to how clean/dirty the panels are. One simplified rule of thumb you can use is that you'll get 5 amps of charging for every 100 watts of solar. So, if you have 400 watts of solar you could enter 20 amps into column B if you don't have another, more precise estimate.   

         


 

[Charles Brennan]

Ed, I think you may be coming down with Timm Rivette Syndrome!! 
This is where you ask someone a question with just enough information, to make the question TOTALLY UNANSWERABLE!! 

Not sure if I want AGM or Lithium this time around,

Whoa! Two very different battery chemistries, with an unknowable solution.
For example:
1) Is that same battery going to be used for starting your outboard motor?
2) Is that motor going to also be used for charging your battery?
I clearly favor Lithium chemistry batteries (particularly LFP) for their increased energy density, lighter weight, greatly increased battery recharging cycles, longevity before discharge and quicker re-charge times.
But all that goes out the window, if a starter motor is involved and an AGM is required.

Running lights/Nav Lights/phones via USB C/VHS radio charging via cigarette lighter plug/Tiller Pilot/water pump off 10 gallon blivet/car cooler using cigarette lighter plug.

Let's parse that sentence a little bit:
"Running lights/Nav Lights/phones via USB C/VHS radio charging via cigarette lighter plug"
Are you saying:
1) The Nav lights wiring terminates in a cigarette lighter plug?
2) Phones via USB-C chargers also terminate in a cigarette lighter plug?
3) VHF radio charging via cigarette lighter plug?
4) So, this wiring goes all over the boat and it all terminates in cigarette lighter plugs?
5) Do they take turns plugging in, or are there multiple cigarette lighter plug sockets?

Further parsing:

/Tiller Pilot/water pump off 10 gallon blivet/car cooler using cigarette lighter plug.

1) All these gadgets terminate in a cigarette lighter plug?

Seems like a basic question:

So what Amazon products do you recommend as far as battery amperage, flexible solar panel, and controller?

But the fly in the ointment, the hidden "gotcha" is the 12 volt car cooler.

Up until then, it was pretty straight-forward.
1) LED Nav lights are about a ¼ Amp a piece.  Say, bow, stern, mast, and maybe a cabin light and you're talking 1 Amp per hour of use. A few hours running at night, 10-12 hours of anchor light a few hours of cabin light, maybe 5 or 6 Amps, tops.
2) Phone chargers are about 2.4 Amps these days, assuming two phones, (One for Becky to call the grandkids, one for you to send out for pizza) is 4.8 Amps, but only require one or possibly two charges per day, if Becky's going FaceBook Crazy, for a max of 10 Amps. Still no Biggie.
3) VHF radio charging is a bit of a problem; we don't know how many watts your VHF sucks down, when charging.
The range is anywhere from 1500 - 2500 ma/Hr or 1½ to 2½ Amps, and they take anywhere from 2 or 3 hours for quick chargers, or up to 4 or 5 hours for slow chargers.  Range: 3 Amps to 25 Amps, depending on charger/usage.
I BEEN TIMM RIVETTED!!! 
GIMME A NUMBER!! 
Throw me a BONE, Man!! 
4) Tiller Pilot falls in that same camp.
"Figures don't lie, but Liars'll figure".
50 ma idle, for most of them, I have no quarrel there.
Average current draw, is where I take issue with the Manufacturer's Fantasies. 
They claim ½ Amp average draw, but on my own TP-10 I measured 2½ - 4 Amp peaks (particularly when I was out of sail trim and a weather helm!)  and showed me on my Smart-Shunt Current monitor total loads for the day (over several days, mind you) of 4 and 5 Amps, whereas 6 hours of ½ Amp draw (per the MFG) should have been 3 Amps.
Your bigger boat might require something along the lines of a TP-32, with even MORE current draw.
And, oh, BTW, you didn't tell me what kind of a Tiller Pilot you're using or want to get, so how am I supposed to calculate that? 
5) Ditto with the water pump.
5a) Is that a pump for the galley?
5b) Or is that a submersible bilge pump? At how many GPH?
NUMBERS MATTER!! 

For all of that, I could still come up with a fair horseback guess: Around 35-50 Amps (worst case) over the course of a day.
40 or 50 A/Hr battery, 50 Watt solar panel and a small current MPPT controller, easy-peasy.

But, NOOOOOOOOO!!!! 
YOU, gotta throw in a 12 Volt cooler!! 
One of the better ones, draws about 60 Watts or 5 Amps per hour X 24 hours, or 120 A/Hrs per day.
Every day.
Here's an example:
https://www.amazon.com/BougeRV-Refrigerator-Portable-Freezer-Compressor/dp/B0C6MLWP43/
BTW, I have issues with 12V car coolers using cigarette lighter plugs.  Those things were originally designed for < 10 Amps use for  approximately 5 seconds, to heat up a cigarette lighter heating element. VERY intermittent usage, even for chain smokers!  24 hours at 5 Amps per hour, is more than those connectors were designed for, IMHO. If I had a 12V cooler, I would terminate it with a 35-Amp Anderson connector with a matching Anderson connector in the boat for 24 hour, day after day, use. Then I would make up an Anderson connector to cigarette plug adapter, for the few hours trip from the house to the boat. (And return.) Just the opinion of a sailor, who saw his million candle power spot light, ignite a plastic cigarette lighter connector once, after several hours of use.

With all your other energy needs, you are now talking about a 150 A/Hr LFP battery, or closer to a 200 A/Hr AGM battery, (due to the AGM's less efficient discharge curve). 
And 200 watts of solar panel replenishment on an MPPT charger.

Swap out a trolling motor and a CPAP machine, for the 12 VDC cooler and you have what I was using on the Irish Pennant before the mast and centerboard decided to swap ends, one weekend. 
I had a 200 watt solar panel array (Two 100 watt panels in series for 24 V) to get to the MPPT charging requirements on two 100 Amp/Hr LFP batteries and was getting so close to best-case numbers, that if I swapped out the inverter for a DC power supply for the CPAP, I might have had enough spare energy to also run a 12V cooler and was busily accumulating data to support just that, when my electrical system got a Violent Reset on Lake Weir. 
It would have solved a lot of problems for me and would have made all-electric micro-cruising wholly self-contained, (no gas, no ice needed) until the food ran out. Once I get all the gear replaced, I intend to pursue that investigation.

Since a 50 or 150 A/Hr battery and a 50 or 200 Watts solar array is quite a price swing, you can see why having better numbers, might help make a more informed choice.  While I have no compunctions about helping you to spend your money,    I want to make sure you have the most bang for the buck and I can't do that, without a few more specifics.

Hope this helps,
Charles Brennan

[Ed]

Hello Charles, thanks for responding.  I guess my list was more of a maybe/wish list than anything concrete.  I don't have a charging circuit nor electric start on the 5 hp Honda the boat came with.  This is my 4th or 5th Honda 5, and I like their reliability and ease of service.  The 12v cooler was a what if that I'll scratch since there is always a place to get ice where I sail.  So Lithium it is, one of the club members was saying an AGM was more reliable than Lithium, while I thought the opposite plus the weight difference. This is the same guy that doubted that Becky and I could pull into the staging area and be on the ramp to launch in less than 30 minutes, and this boat is even easier than our 23.5 to rig.  As to the cigarette lighter plug the only thing that uses that is the VHF radio, the cig plug will be wired to Aux 1 along with the the USB outlet, Amazon makes some nice ones with rubber covers.  The water blivet, to rinse off in the cockpit, will run off the 2nd Aux switch.  I'll run the Tiller Pilot, when I get one, to Aux 3.  Hope this is enough information for you.  Just tell me and I'll gladly supply additional information.  Fall Colors Cruise, Friday to Sunday, is the end of the month, and I would like to be ready for it.  Thanks, Ed

[Charles Brennan]

Ed, Thank you for your quick response. Just what we like to see: FACTS!! 

BATTERY:
For what you've described to date, sounds like a 12V 50 A/Hr LiFePO4 (LFP) battery would suit your needs.
You mentioned a preference for Amazon sourcing, although that frequently crowds out alternative equipment.
Here's an Amazon grocery list of 12V 50A/Hr LFP batteries:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=50+A%2FHr+12+V+LiFePO4+battery+with+Bluetooth&crid=235GJZ0PDFX4I&sprefix=50+a%2Fhr+12+v+lifepo4+battery+with+bluetooth%2Caps%2C155&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

I would strongly recommend two things for your application:
1) Bluetooth.  The knock on hi-tech marine power sources, is not knowing how much capacity is left.  A Bluetooth monitor that ties to an app on your phone, eliminates all that.
2) Low-Temp operation.  Most LFP batteries have that nowadays, but any Mfg. that doesn't ballyhoo that fact, should set off the red flags.  Slipped in Georgia, in winter, that would be a necessity.

On the above Amazon list are several batteries, but few of them have Bluetooth capability and the ones that do, cost as much (or more!)  as 100 A/Hr LFP batteries with Bluetooth. 
Here's an example:
https://www.amazon.com/Redodo-Bluetooth-12V-Protection-Lightweight/dp/B0DCBDKM8C/

So we might need to upgrade a little, into the 100A/Hr range.
One of my personal favorites in terms of bang for the buck are Wattcycle batteries, but their 50 A/Hr does not come with Bluetooth, either.
The 100 A/hr LFP does.
https://www.wattcycle.com/products/wattcycle-12v-100ah-group-24-lifepo4-battery
At 23 lb total, it's an extra 12 lb compared to a 50A/Hr battery and one third the weight of an equivalent AGM battery.
For double the energy.

SOLAR ARRAY:
MPPT controllers need to have at least a 5 volt differential to do their thing. (i.e. 17+ volts in, to get 12 volts out.) This means that a 12 volt solar panel will NOT correctly operate a 12 volt MPPT charger.  You need two smaller, 12 volt panels that can be wired in series for 24 volts and then, everything is happy.
https://www.amazon.com/LETSFAB-50W-Flexible-Solar-Panels/dp/B0GYNN3TLW/
Get a couple of these and you should do fine.

MPPT Solar Charger:
https://www.amazon.com/Victron-SmartSolar-Charge-Controller-Bluetooth/dp/B075NQQRPD/
This is what I had on the Irish Pennant and will have again (once I sell off some more obsolete Rock n' Roll gear).
Get the Vectron app for your phone and it will tell you everything you need to know, as long as the sun is shining.
You cannot view this attachment.
I wouldn't even bother with trying to wire in the LOAD connections, run the solar array into the solar input and the battery to the battery output and you're done.

Final benefit:
With a 100 A/Hr LFP, you might not even need to set up the solar array, except for trips more than two or three days, in length. (Or while at the slip, to keep the battery topped off, after a weekend usage.) While I used my 200 watt solar array all through the Florida 120; on all  my day trips, I didn't even bother to set it up and I was running trolling motors and tiller pilots and all the toys. The battery percentage remaining, that is showing on the Bluetooth app will inform your decisions.

Hope this helps,
Charles Brennan