Dropping and Re-Hanging Cast Iron Stub and Swing Keel

[Spot]

Charles is right - the "sand wet epoxy" method and the "Ospho and then coat" method are two different ones.  You probably don't need to use Ospho AND sand wet epoxy.

And Charles' keel has seen a lot more SALT water than mine has (none).   

Thanks Noemi. Charles has been more than kind in showing his methods, and I appreciate reading your account too. I decided to adopt the West System method which would have me sand or scratch the wet epoxy onto clean bare metal whenever possible and to use their 422 barrier coat additive on the layers between the raw epoxy and final paint. Sometimes it is hard to know what to do when there are two good methods. I just need to keep going at this point otherwise I won't get a sailing season...

[Spot]

I got a little more done today.

I spent a while on a spreadsheet recording what I did so far to predict resin use for subsequent sessions. I was surprised to find out that I will be using about 1500 grams / 3.4 pounds of mixed resin by the time I am done with 2 substantial coats each surface of keel and blade. The section done up until now only represents about 10% of the total area.

I moved the keel from right side up to on its side and mixed the predicted batch. I took a 1.25$ 'dollar store' BBQ cleaning brush and fit it to go inside the keel. It did a nice job up until I tapped it too hard while cleaning it.... I have another one like it and another variation that is more stout I can try later. On the outside I just poured and swirled, on the inside I used a small roller on a long handle. I used a small brush to tip the outside and add resin to the smaller vertical faces.

All and all it went pretty well. I am hoping this sets up enough to apply the barrier coat later tonight so I can flip and repeat 2 coats tomorrow.

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[Spot]

I got the barrier coat on late last night. Once it hardens up I will flip it to the other side and repeat the two coats and then let it cure before finish paint and re-install. I still need to do all of the refinishing steps to the swinging portion of the keel. The new lifting cable is sitting in a box next to the new keel bolts.

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[Spot]

I had a chance to text with a local sailing buddy from TSBB over the weekend, I have to admit it put a little more 'gas in my tank' for keeping this project going as he asked 'so when are we going sailing?'..
Yesterday (flip, sand, stage, coat with red-tinted epoxy) and this morning (barrier coat) on port side.
I did better at staging: swept a little, added rosin paper, fixed the BBQ brush to reuse a last time, and added tape to the plywood blocks to prevent excessive sticking. I am debating whether to hang first then paint or paint first then hang. I could also paint the inner slot and around the bolt holes, hang, and do the remaining outside after it's hung.

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[Noemi - Ensenada 20]

I could also paint the inner slot and around the bolt holes, hang, and do the remaining outside after it's hung.

This is what I would do.

[Spot]

Thanks Noemi.
I started scraping and sanding the mating surface on the hull. Would it make sense to coat the hull with epoxy in the area that will receive the sealant on top of the keel? Got a feeling it is thick gel coat in this area...or should one sand it down to the glass and epoxy? No signs of blisters, just don't want to have gone this far and miss an easy upgrade to the keel sealing system.

[Wyb2]

Spot, If it's not too late, have you considered installing some kind of bushing in the pivot hole?  I did this on my MacGregor, I drilled out the pivot hole in the keel (a big pain), made a bushing out of UHMWPE, and glued into the hole with thickened epoxy.

UHMWPE is roughly the same stuff Dyneema is made out of.  I used it for a few reasons: low moisture absorption, low coefficient of friction, less brittle than epoxy, but most importantly because it's inexpensive on McMaster and I have a mini lathe in the garage.  One potential downside is it's not the best material for the epoxy to bond to.  I figured even if it breaks loose, it can't go anywhere, and water getting between plastic and epoxy isn't going to hurt anything.

I went through the trouble because I felt like no coating was going to stand up very long to 600 lbs rubbing back and forth.  I considered just going straight thickened epoxy in the enlarged hole, but felt like it might crack under the weight. And did I mention the mini lathe?

Anyway, I can't guarantee it's a good idea, I've only splashed the boat twice.  But food for thought.

By the way, thanks for making me aware of this board, not sure how I missed it when I was researching the MacGregor.  It seems a little less, um, noisy than some other places.

[Charles Brennan]

Spot, Your statement:
"Would it make sense to coat the hull with epoxy in the area that will receive the sealant on top of the keel? Got a feeling it is thick gel coat in this area...or should one sand it down to the glass and epoxy? No signs of blisters, just don't want to have gone this far and miss an easy upgrade to the keel sealing system."

Makes me wonder if you're beginning to over-think this, just a little.

I would not expect there to be signs of blisters, since the keel assembly was previously sealed to the hull.
Sounds like a lot of extra work with no measurable reward.
Consider:
Even if the affected bottom area was cardboard, as long as you had a good sealant and good tensile loading between the keel assembly (all those bolts) and all that reinforcement you've done inside the hull, it would scarcely matter, would it? 

While it's easy to succumb to the "Paralysis of Analysis" on a big project, trust in Occam's Razor and "Git'r DONE!!"

One guy's opinion,
Charles Brennan

[Spot]

Spot, If it's not too late, have you considered installing some kind of bushing in the pivot hole?  I did this on my MacGregor, I drilled out the pivot hole in the keel (a big pain), made a bushing out of UHMWPE, and glued into the hole with thickened epoxy.

UHMWPE is roughly the same stuff Dyneema is made out of.  I used it for a few reasons: low moisture absorption, low coefficient of friction, less brittle than epoxy, but most importantly because it's inexpensive on McMaster and I have a mini lathe in the garage.  One potential downside is it's not the best material for the epoxy to bond to.  I figured even if it breaks loose, it can't go anywhere, and water getting between plastic and epoxy isn't going to hurt anything.

I went through the trouble because I felt like no coating was going to stand up very long to 600 lbs rubbing back and forth.  I considered just going straight thickened epoxy in the enlarged hole, but felt like it might crack under the weight. And did I mention the mini lathe?

Anyway, I can't guarantee it's a good idea, I've only splashed the boat twice.  But food for thought.

By the way, thanks for making me aware of this board, not sure how I missed it when I was researching the MacGregor.  It seems a little less, um, noisy than some other places.

I thought about wanting a bigger pivot bolt than the 1/2" that is there...but after looking at the 1/4" bolt holding the 256# blade to the 5/16" eye to the 5/32" cable into the winch...all I want to do now is drill the blade's small bolt hole out to 5/16" and use a 5/16" bolt and call that part good.

Yes, a nice bunch here. Even more fun when you get the usual suspects in the chat...

Spot, Your statement:
"Would it make sense to coat the hull with epoxy in the area that will receive the sealant on top of the keel? Got a feeling it is thick gel coat in this area...or should one sand it down to the glass and epoxy? No signs of blisters, just don't want to have gone this far and miss an easy upgrade to the keel sealing system."

Makes me wonder if you're beginning to over-think this, just a little.

I would not expect there to be signs of blisters, since the keel assembly was previously sealed to the hull.
Sounds like a lot of extra work with no measurable reward.
Consider:
Even if the affected bottom area was cardboard, as long as you had a good sealant and good tensile loading between the keel assembly (all those bolts) and all that reinforcement you've done inside the hull, it would scarcely matter, would it? 

While it's easy to succumb to the "Paralysis of Analysis" on a big project, trust in Occam's Razor and "Git'r DONE!!"

One guy's opinion,
Charles Brennan

And a good opinion at that CB, thanks!

I will take a look at the boat's external keel plate again once I get the old goop scraped and sanded. It doesn't seem like it will take much work to get it clean and flat.  From that point I could leave it alone, give a quick coat of something, or overwork it into oblivion...

[Spot]

I got some more cleaned up under the keel. I did find a few dry blisters and a bunch of eyelash cracks. Are these real problems or just cosmetic at this point?
It was quick work, after the big/thick chunks were removed with a blade on a multi-tool, the polycarbide 'purple' disk cuts right through the residue. A random orbital sander was used as a final pass. It is smooth but not dead flat. It seems like countersinking the 8 mounting holes a tiny bit might help ease the bolts in and draw some sealant into the holes.

keel first dropped:
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last night:
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today 1:
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today2:
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[Noemi - Ensenada 20]

The rusty look of the first pic shows that water was getting in between the hull and the keel.  So a careful application of sealant is in order.

My opinion is that if the sealant is done right, little blisters & cracks won't be a problem.  However, were I you, I would probably rethink this about a million times.  Fixit now, though it won't ever be a problem?  Or leave it be, and have to take it apart again later?

Is it possible to do that thing where you apply sealant, reinstall everything and tighten almost all the way, let it cure, then snug it up?  Works on small things, but I dunno about keels.

[Spot]

The rusty look of the first pic shows that water was getting in between the hull and the keel.  So a careful application of sealant is in order.

My opinion is that if the sealant is done right, little blisters & cracks won't be a problem.  However, were I you, I would probably rethink this about a million times.  Fixit now, though it won't ever be a problem?  Or leave it be, and have to take it apart again later?

Is it possible to do that thing where you apply sealant, reinstall everything and tighten almost all the way, let it cure, then snug it up?  Works on small things, but I dunno about keels.

LOL Noemi, you and I overthink alot alike

The seal-install-cure-tighten procedure is what I was planning. Since I do not have a factory torque spec, I was planning on making some FR4 board shims at my desired 4000UV/5200 thickness (1/4" / 6mm ?) and tighten all 8 bolts until they hit the shims and have about the same torque. Then let cure, fill in the small holes left by the shims, and add a couple pounds of 'tight' to each bolt. The shims would be well away from the bolts so as not to interfere with the overall squeeze or seal.

I was asked by an ocean-going sailor if I was going to use bottom paint on this repair. I read somewhere that trailer-stored boats don't really need anti-foul and I am in fresh water. Do people have firm opinions one way or the other on this topic? I suppose if I did use some anti-foul, I could trailer down south and sail with CB in one of those FL rallies, if he's willing to associate with the likes of me 

[Charles Brennan]

Spot,
A Centipede was happy, quite, until a Frog in fun,
Said: "Pray which leg comes after which?"
Which raised his mind to such a pitch,
He lay distracted in a ditch.
Considering how to run.

Don't be a Centipede, Man.

Hull seemed to clean up nicely, and all dings appear to be cosmetic.
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If it was me, I'd just hit the dings with Marine-Tex, (purely to hedge my bets) sand them smooth and rely on the sealant to protect everything else.

Your other statements:
"I was asked by an ocean-going sailor if I was going to use bottom paint on this repair. I read somewhere that trailer-stored boats don't really need anti-foul and I am in fresh water."
"Do people have firm opinions one way or the other on this topic?"
Oh, yeah! People DEFINITELY have opinions! I'm not in the anti-fouling paint camp.

"I suppose if I did use some anti-foul, I could trailer down south and sail with CB in one of those FL rallies, if he's willing to associate with the likes of me." 
IMHO, anti-fouling is not necessary for the average duration of most Florida vacation cruises.
Urchin has never ever had anti-fouling on her hull, in 46 years.
A buddy had a Florida Keys time-share and for about 20 years, we would drag Urchin (And later on, Short Ribs) to Marathon and put her in the water for a week at a time.  After pulling the boat and putting her back on the trailer, there would be an almost clear "slime" on the hull which easily washed off with the soap setting pressure washer of the nearest coin-operated car wash.
On the BEER Cruises and the Florida 120 runs, I don't even get the slight slime, but those cruises are typically only 5 or 6 days.  Never even consider bottom fouling on Columbus Day Cruising Regatta weekends. "Marina Mustache" on the waterline from grundgy marinas like Boca Chica, sure, but the hull's fine.

As far as being "willing to associate with the likes of me" I would say: COME ON DOWN!!!
You know how I attended the very first BEER Cruise?
I was invited!
All the GRITS (Gulf Regional Interstate Trailer Sailors), Ben, Shane, John, Brian, Dexter and all the other Usual Suspects, directly invited me to attend.  Very gracious people.
YOU ARE INVITED!!

Hope this clarifies,
Charles Brennan

[Spot]

Don't be a Centipede, Man.

If it was me, I'd just hit the dings with Marine-Tex, (purely to hedge my bets) sand them smooth and rely on the sealant to protect everything else.

I'm not in the anti-fouling paint camp.
 
YOU ARE INVITED!!

Love it CB. Above list are my take-aways

The guy who asked me about the paint had similar advice for filling and said to give it a barrier coat before the 5200. He also said to leave the glass spheres out and stick with epoxy and fumed silica (anti-slump).

I ground off some of the old finish on the swinging part of the keel today, two overheat cycles on the grinder. I am just short of 2/3rds done on one side.  I should really have a second grinder or see if the disks will work OK at sander/polisher speeds to allow one or two tools to cool off while using the other.

Thunderstorm rolling in and about time to call it a night. Thanks for all of the input, it is appreciated!

[Spot]

I went to look for the rotary (dremel-type) tool, took me about an hour to find it and a suitable bit.

I chased the first couple eyelashes, just opening the crack to receive resin, only to realize that a quick flip of the wrist would pop a small piece off.

Repeat 32x and take an oversized drill bit to add a chamfer to the bolt holes.

Why does one area seem damp? Is the nighttime dew falling under the boat? Grab a worklight and another tool to keep sanding. Check inside boat for water, all seems dry.

Hit the hole again with the poly-carbide disk and it is definitely wet...water in the lam. Does not smell or feel different than fresh water. Other pukas seemed dry except for the one mounting hole.

Suggestions? I had the thought to strip rest of gelcoat in this area and vacuum bag it and see what collects in the trap. I am also thinking this could be a season killer if it's going to take a month or more to dry out.

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