HELP!! Talk me down from a Bad Decision!! . . .

[Charles Brennan]

My wife loves to go antiquing.
I was a reluctant convert until I discovered you could get stuff of a quality, no longer available in our throwaway society. 
Very well-made tools, for example.
Most people get long-ago stuff that they reminisce over, or that have fond memories for them.
And today I nearly succumbed to that same trap/feeling. 

My future SCAMP project is eventually going to need propulsion and the most common type is a Honda 2.3 outboard in the $900+ range.
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BUT!
Today on about the third antique store, I tripped over a 1963 British Seagull Forty Plus outboard!
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Ok, it didn't look quite as pristine as the above brochure pic shows, but it was in decent shape.
Carburetor, and float pin functional, throttle cable not seized, engine not seized, good compression when flywheel was spun, no major rust or corrosion.
This happens to ALSO be the 2nd motor to ever grace the stern of Urchin.
The first was a Sears 5hp Gamefisher, and of all the outboard motors I have ever hated, I hated that one the most!   
The shear pin would shear for most any reason and occasionally no reason at all; did not have a displacement prop so any attempt at thrust would make the prop cavitate.   
It's jon-boat transom length meant it was useless for Urchin in any kind of sea-way with the prop lifting clear of the water and the sudden re-immersion in the water being sufficient to shear the prop's shear pin.   
I was never so grateful as when someone stole it off the back of the boat, in our backyard.   

The (then) 15-year-old British Seagull 40+ I got was MUCH better for a budding sailor.
Oh, it had its quirks, aplenty.
No recoil starter; you wound a length of rope with a wooden handle around the flywheel and pulled the cord briskly.
My wife, who was inevitably in the back-swing of the starter cord was not a big fan of that function.
But I can (and have) started the motor with a piece of dock line when the starter cord broke, or mysteriously ended up Among the Missing.
Refueling at sea was a challenge; holding a gas can and a funnel over an open tank spout and trying not to add too much of the Atlantic Ocean, to the mix.   
It had some cool features, though. 
A hefty spring on the prop, instead of a shear pin.  You hit a rock and it went SPRUNG!! and maybe stalled the motor, but otherwise, just bounced back.
A nearly indestructible single piston engine.

Once, pretty far out at sea in somewhat Sporting Conditions with the kids, a monstrous wave courtesy of a Rude Yacht made a wave so big, that the motor went under water.   
While running.
Engine pistons are designed to compress air, not water.
Most engines trying to suddenly compress water (mechanics like to call it: "Hydraulic Lock")  will break the connecting rod, or the piston, or poke a new hole in the engine block.
A sturdy British Seagull will simply blow out the head gasket in two of four possible places.
And I mean, blow the gasket pieces out, completely clear of the engine block, to be Lost at Sea.
Using the waxed cardboard of two of the kid's  Juicy-Juice empty fruit juice containers with what was left of the old head gasket for a pattern, I fashioned a new head gasket, reassembled the motor, dumped out the sea-water/ fuel parfait from the fuel tank, put in new fuel and started it on the first pull and continued on my way.
A far cry from the temperamental, small, 4-stroke motors that will clog the carburetor's tiny emulsifier tubes or glue the float pins shut, on the least provocation.

And the final kicker:  They want 125 bucks for it.   
I saw one a few years ago for 300 bucks that was in far worse shape and would have required much more effort and parts, to become functional, again.
The dilemma: 900 bucks and problems I have no experience with, or 125 bucks for problems that I spent decades dealing with.

In fairness, I remember that I replaced the 40+ with a British Seagull Silver Century Plus, that had a recoil starter, and F-N-R gear shift changes; both, things my wife insisted upon.
The 40+, if the engine is running, the prop is going forward.   You CAN rotate it better than 90º each direction, and I remembered pushing the stern off a dock, swinging the motor around and turning the hull, to get away from the dock.  But no reverse at all.
Coming back to the dock, you had to "guess" when to kill the motor, because you couldn't second-guess yourself with a shift lever.
Just don't know if I need that much "adventure" at this stage of my life.   

Tried to look at it rationally:
PRO:
$125 bucks.
1 pound lighter than the Honda (more with the long shaft).
"Cool Factor".      (Can you imagine the way a British Seagull would look, on the stern of a SCAMP?)   
Pretty much indestructible and easy to maintain/repair.
They were originally designed as a life raft motor for Lancaster Bombers and intended to be maintained with: Pliers, Screwdriver, and adjustable Spanner (Crescent Wrench).
Lots (perhaps too much!) experience with keeping the motor running.

CON:
25:1 fuel/oil mixture is not perhaps the most ecologically sound, these days. 
No reverse.
No recoil start.
Hard to get parts, although they are available; had I had the Internet available to me, back when I got rid of the Silver Century Plus, I might have kept it, instead.
61 year old motor, versus 1 or 2 year old motor.
NO experience with the foibles of a new (to me) motor.

My head tells me one direction; my heart tells me another.
I seek the Learned Opinions of the Sage and August TSBBers.

What do y'all think?   
I didn't buy it, reasoning that I could always go back, since nobody in North Central Florida has any inkling what that thing is.
(One guy thought it was a turn of the last Century, motor; I didn't enlighten him.)   
Cost effective solution, or maddening boon-doggle?

What say you?
Charles Brennan

[CapnK]

I have wanted a Silver Century Plus for, well, centuries - it seems like. I still look around every few months, when I think of it...

At that price and as described, you will always be able to resell, without losing, and maybe even making, money from it. Not Elon money, but a few bucks maybe.

The Hondas are tough and have a good rep, but I have one I got for a song and found out that they are air cooled, noisy rattling things.
(So is the Seagull, yes.)

For New Honda money, let me recommend the 2.5hp Suzuki four smoke. Similarly light, also hard to kill, efficient and quiet.
Only 'drawback' to them I found was there is an internal sacrificial zinc, tucked away under a cover in next to the thermostat. (Not sure if they still do - mine was an '07-ish model.) Make it part of your annual, replacing it when you do the impeller. The place to do that is shown here in this video, tho' he doesn't show the process it is easy to figure out when you get the thing opened up. Not knowing about it, mine disintegrated and then clogged up the cooling system, until I figured this out and fixed it back up good as new.
Bought online, the engine cost me IIRC in the $725 range, and held up well enough that when I resold it I was able to get most of that back.

https://youtu.be/mJ5sZhRXlEk?t=910

I only sold it because I came into possession of a "can't-get-it-in-America-anymore" Merc 3.3 2-smoke.

[Captain Kidd]

Ditto what he said. Can resell if necessary. I guess you know the Honda has no reverse as well, though it pivots 360 degrees. That's the motor I just bought.

[Riley Smith]

So....you're willing to forgo usefulness and time for nostalgia and appearance? As I see it, you don't even know if the seagull RUNS!!! Never be it for me to advise one on personal matters. That happens to be the time that everything blows up in the perpetrator's face and guess who gets blamed? Do what you want; it's your circus!!! Having never even SEEN a seagull, I can't actually comment anyway.

[DBthal]

I want my outboard to start easily when I need it!

[Brian N.]

I would go with the newer Honda 2.3 (or 2.o if you can find a long shaft used). Main reason is reliability. I've done nothing but change the plug (ever 3-4 years) and yearly oil change, plus gas additive, and it starts on the first or second pull every time. No winterizing needed - I just keep fresh gas with additive all winter and start it once or twice on a warmer winter day. No impeller to change either as it is air cooled. Nostalgia is nice, but dealing with an oil-gas mix is not something I would want to go back to. Negatives - loud, no reverse unless you spin the engine which is a pain.

[Krusen]

Hard one to call, Charles.  A few years ahead of you on the aging game, and I am well aware that tasks that were a breeze in my forties and fifties are now plain impossible.  Servicing that Seagull on the water was a piece of cake then.  But remember, you are building a Scamp for good reasons.  Probably not an issue with the modest hours you run under power, you will need about twice the gasoline for the Seagull as a more modern 2 stroke, and even more compared to 4 stroke.  A recoil starter cord means the cord is not floating around the cockpit when you need to get under power fast.

A more modern outboard, 2 or 4 stroke, with 360 turning ability, and moderately used should be cheap if you are patient.  Air cooled is noisy, but lighter and cheaper.  Haunt Craig's List for a good one while building the Scamp.

Up here, fresh water marina's are rapidly refusing to allow launching what Kurt likes to call 2 smoke motors, and many lakes flat outlaw them.  The ocean and gulf are not yet there, but will be in the future, ending resale value. 


If you do buy the Seagull, contrive a modified cap with a quick connect fuel fitting, and refuel underway by twin hose, overflow back to the main tank.  Keep two pull ropes on board too.  Spares should include head gaskets and spark plugs, as those will be hard to find in most marina's.

KRUSEN

[pgandw]

After switching to electric last year, I will never go back to gas for auxiliary power on a small sailboat.  With Scamp's size, a trolling motor would be perfect, along with a LiFePO battery to power it, and would cost less than that new Honda.  No worries about legality on lakes and reservoirs.

I actually motor and motorsail a lot more than when I had a gas outboard thanks to the silence.  I have no gas aboard my mini-cruiser except for a butane cylinder for the stove. On my Mariner, that gives additional passenger space in the cockpit that the 3 gal gas tank took up.  No starting anxiety, just tilt the motor down and twist the throttle.  Range - I know I have 12 nautical miles (3 hours) worth of battery after running trials with the GPS.

I use an Epropulsion Spirit on my 1350lb, 19ft Mariner but that would be overkill for your situation. Which is why I suggest the trolling motor.

Fred W
Stuart Mariner 19 #4133  Sweet P
Yeopim Creek, Albemarle Sound, NC

[Tim West Coast]

Oh for crying out loud Charles, buy it! It won't be the most foolish thing you have done. And we are all looking forward to the stories that come from it!

[Charles Brennan]

Appreciate the thoughts from everyone; this is a great group of people.

Cap'n K: Your reply reminded me of a pro/con I had missed: Honda being air-cooled and the British Seagull's infamous water impeller.  Good News: Easy to change. Bad News: You have to do it a LOT!  I irrationally despise Suzukis (rusty carb bowls for one) and might need to re-think that, based on your recommendation, although advice on remediating manufacturing defects, is not a real strong argument.   

Captain Kidd: "Can resell if necessary." Not so sure about that; you're talking about an extreme niche market, there.

Riley: "As I see it, you don't even know if the seagull RUNS!!!"  You didn't read closely enough, My Man; I knew it felt like good compression, wasn't seized, etc. and I have a lot of practice feeling for exactly that.  Also, I never had a British Seagull I couldn't get running. My problem was KEEPING them running when I couldn't get parts.  There is a whole Cult Industry re-manufacturing Seagull parts, so now I COULD get parts.  One of the things that made the choice, so difficult.

DBthal: Ironically, that was one of the attractions for me.  After I learned of (all!) the Seagull's quirks, I never failed to start it on no more than two pulls, and the vast majority of starts were after a single pull.
Hasn't run in a month? Put on the choke, put the throttle cable halfway between full on and full off, open the fuel valve, start motor.  Been run once, today? Put off the choke and repeat the rest.  Seriously, you have no idea how reliable these motors were and why I treasured mine, so.

Brian N: A most encouraging recommendation.  Other TSBBer (positive!) experiences, is exactly what I was looking for.

Krusen: Good and Thoughtful Advice, as always.  Especially, about aged maintenance and repairs, versus more youthful maintenance and repairs.  I was already uncomfortable with the 2-cycle mess a 25:1 fuel/oil mix makes and well remember the permanent sheen in the water off my stern so that was a good reminder.  Also good advice about re-fueling plumbing, you enabler, you! 

pgandw: Fred, I had a trolling motor on Urchin for 3 years (in between the Forty Plus and the Silver Century Plus) and should probably give that more serious consideration than I have, to date.  Between ESC and PWM controllers, and improvements in battery technology, to say nothing of pulsed DC motors, I might finally be able to achieve the cruising distances that I can currently only get from gasoline engines. Will do some hard thinking on that.

Tim West Coast: ENABLER!! ENABLER!!  

The thing I got most from reading all the responses, was about Time.
Time spent refurbishing a motor from a by-gone era is Time not sailing and not boat-building.  Guess I was obsessing on the money differential for getting an engine on the stern and NOT considering that I have plenty of time to shop for a more optimum solution.  I can always get some more money; I can't get more Time.

Thanks to all of you,
Charles Brennan   

[Norm L.]

I'm getting in on this late. I love Seagulls. Mainly because I never had one but grew up hearing great stories from owners on how bullet proof they are.

If I were in that situation, I would Buy the Seagull make it pretty and put it up on a wall. And put a modern outboard on the boat. I do like KISS and think electric is the way to go for your probable usage.
Having been tracking battery science future batteries will give you better range. Even now you can get a new generation new science battery, but they are still quite expensive.

Marine lithium batteries and their control systems are quite popular on bigger (which includes bigger $$$) sail and power boats.

[CapnK]

Oh for crying out loud Charles, buy it! It won't be the most foolish thing you have done. And we are all looking forward to the stories that come from it!

If I were in that situation, I would Buy the Seagull make it pretty and put it up on a wall.

Two VERY good points. Bonus - you'll have the no-brain, circuit-free Seagull in case we get an EMP...
Yes of course that's a valid reason! (Valid enough to make it a plausible wall hanging, when you explain to Mary.)

WRT trolling motor range, FWIW - I've got the cheapest ($90 IIRC) MinnKota 30# thrust 12V troller on my 12' micro-power cruiser. Coupled with a 22# 100Ah LiFePo4 battery ($225 @Amazon), running at 3/4 throttle should produce 20+ hours of runtime.
Good enough to serve as a 'get home' option if the Yammy 9.9 fails for some reason; should work even better for the Scamp!

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[Jeff G.]

One thing I will say.  they are LOUD! But probably more torque than anything else in its size.

[noelH]

Go Seagull v. the made in China Honda with the sometimes questionable bolts holding the thing together.

Reliable. You have oars .

No recoil rope. Simpler and more reliable. If you have been around long enough. You have probably experienced rope snapping, knot braking, and of course no tool to take the thing apart to repair the thing.

Cost, no brainer.

Cool factor, no brainer.

Both are loud motors.  Might as well wake everyone and everything up.

ICE are just polluters. Matter of degree of pollution.

Your past experience has prepared you for the oh poo moments.

[noelH]

Just thought of an (unpleasant) option to either motor.  Those $200 eBay 2 cycle outboards that look like a gas powered brusher, weedwacker motor attached to a shaft with a pop. They sort of resemble the Seagull.  But why? Probably a piece of unproven junk for $200 v. a real outboard with a history for $125.