Anybody have much luck beating to windward in a P165 in 20kts and a choppy sea?

[Quantico Frank]

I haven't. It's happened twice to me trying to round "Breezy Point" at the Norfolk Naval Station heading north and trying to turn east around the point. Both times the high easterly winds weren't forecast, and both times I had to drop both sails and motor back, being happy just to be able to strap the main to the boom. Although I probably had a mile of sea room to the north, I figure it would have taken me FOREVER (or maybe for-never) to beat my way back to the marina even on one sail, and that would have been a lot sportier than I'm comfortable with. Any advice?

[tjspiel]

FWIW I was once on my friend's boat up on Lake Superior. He hates motoring but also knows that his boat doesn't point as well as he'd like. I'm not really an expert on what makes one boat point better than another.

Anyway, to get to the island we were headed to meant heading upwind for several miles. We were doing fine for awhile but after the wind and waves really kicked up we were making virtually no progress at all.  He reluctantly turned on the motor, - otherwise we weren't going to make it before dark.

Maybe some changes in rig tuning or having a smaller jib for windy conditions would help. But I think there's going to be scenarios when getting somewhere upwind is going to be more work than it's worth, even if you could eventually make it. When the wind and waves are conspiring to push you away from where you're trying to go, sometimes you need to throw in the towel.

20 kts and the associated waves on a large body of water are nothing to sneeze at. Some boats are quite at home in that. My Precision really isn't, - upwind or not. For us, 20 kts usually means gusts up into the 30s. I'm eventually going to add a second reef to my main, then maybe 20 kts won't be a big deal. But now it is.

[Charles Brennan]

Frank, About 8 or 9 years ago, I bought a storm jib for Urchin, my Windrose 18.  Sounds bigger than your boat, but it's nose sticks out more than your Precision 165 and so the LWL of both boats is similar.
I wanted to be able to expand the envelope of sailing conditions that I could safely/comfortably sail in, for those 5 or 6 weekends a year, that I might otherwise have passed on.
I have used it no more than 4 or 5 times in the ensuing years, but I was Grateful on each of the occasions.
I don't have any pics of it rigged on the sailboat, since every time it was used, I was umm . . . .  preoccupied.   

The sole exception to that, was to moderate boat motion for a first-time sailing guest.  Winds were 10 -15 knots, steady, no gusts and the jib, even with a single reef in the mainsail, was still a little too "sporting"    for my guest.  Changed out the jib for the storm jib and put in another reef in the main and we cruised sedately along, at 2½ knots.

It's maybe an extravagant purchase for the amount of use you get out of it, but every time I've used mine, I was happy to do so.
Makes a BIG difference beating into rough weather; the difference in control has to be experienced, to be appreciated.
I would also point out that every time I have used it, it was NOT while going out; it was used while trying to get back IN, from worsening conditions.   
I've never used the fire extinguisher I keep on board either, but if I ever need it, I'll need it BAD.
Same thing.

One guy's opinion,
Charles Brennan

[DBthal]

Tom said: "Maybe some changes in rig tuning or having a smaller jib for windy conditions would help. But I think there's going to be scenarios when getting somewhere upwind is going to be more work than it's worth, even if you could eventually make it. When the wind and waves are conspiring to push you away from where you're trying to go, sometimes you need to throw in the towel."

I agree with Tom's comments.

As a fellow P-165 sailor, I'll be interested in the responses. I've got roller furling on my jib, so a storm jib wouldn't be an easy switch to make on the water.

The P-165 has a lot of sail area for it's size & displacement, and only a single reef. Much above 15 knots of wind (with higher gusts) and I'm calling it a day. Fortunately for me, the layout of my bay forces upwind sailing to start the session. I'm almost always sailing downwind to get back to my mooring.

[Brian N.]

At 20 knots and lumpy water, I'm done for the day and normally motor in. As already mentioned, the P165 is not the best at pointing into the wind, but not too bad either. I've had days where on one tack I'll gain a mile to windward, but then lose half on the other tack. A friend once was on top of the bluff overlooking the bay I frequently sail and joked "What was all that back and forth just to gain 1/4 mile". Waves bashing the boat certainly don't help. I've considered getting a small jib, but as Charles said, it would be used infrequently.

[Quantico Frank]

Thanks, everyone for the advice. A storm jib would be nice, and I would have rigged it at the pier last week, but rigging it underway in that wind and sea single handed would have essentially been going for a swim even if still attached to the boat by my tether. I'm starting to also think about a roller furling jib again despite how much I like my current setup with the hank-on and downhaul. I've never really paid attention to this before, but would having some headsail on do much to improve the pointing ability of the boat? Thanks!

[DBthal]

.......I've never really paid attention to this before, but would having some headsail on do much to improve the pointing ability of the boat? Thanks!

It's not often that I partially furl the jib. When I do, it's to balance the helm rather than gain pointing ability. A more experienced, technical sailor than me might be able to answer your question.

[pgandw]

Just my recent experience on my ODay Mariner.

Set out on an 18 mile return to home from Edenton, NC.  About 4 miles along, wind picked up seriously to where I had about 15 (felt like 20-25).  I had not reefed the main because winds were forecast to max out at 12 kts.  In some really lumpy 3-4ft seas, with the wind blowing from the NE down the Sound.  Got scared when I saw how slack the leeward shrouds had become (found out it's normal on a Mariner, racers put a bar in the cabin between the chain plates in higher winds).  Tacking angle looked to be a pitiful 110 degrees (see screenshot of Navionics track).

Nevertheless, being single handed, I felt it was too rough and would lose too much ground to heave to and either reef the main or untilt and lower the motor.  So I soldiered on.  I sheeted the jib in as tightly as possible, and eased the mainsheet so forward 1/3 of main was bubbled.  This allowed me to keep the leeward rail out of the water.  I fiddled with pinching slightly and observing the Navionics GPS speed.  Got it to where GPS was calling me at 4.2 - 4.6 kts, which I figured was reasonable for the conditions.

I was very surprised at how well Sweet P rode the waves.  Only 4 times in 5 hours did I have spray from a wave soak me down.

The scariest part was at the end when I had to turn off the wind in the largest seas of the day at the entrance to Yeopim River.  I was way overpowered for close reaching.  Just as soon as the waves calmed in the Yeopim Creek, turned into the wind, lowered the jib (jib has a downhaul).  Turned into the wind again, lowered the motor (I have an electric outboard - Epropulsion Spirit) and got us pointing into the wind with the tiller clutch.  Then lowered the main, and MOTORED the 2 miles home - a tired, humbled, but still alive and thankful, man.

I know exactly what you mean about going for an inadvertent swim single handing.  That day it would have been a death sentence.  No boats out there in the afternoon except me.  CG 35 miles away if I could reach them on my handheld VHF or cell phone.

The previous day had had the same winds, but was mostly downwind going to Edenton.  I reefed the main before leaving the dock, and was so glad I did.  Even with the reefed main, GPS showed me surfing at 8.2 kts, with once recording 9.3 kts.  I ended up pulling all but a few inches of the centerboard up to help avoid broaching.

I guess what I had been slow realizing is that 12-15 kts of wind in sheltered water is a whole lot different from 12-15 kts of wind in Albemarle Sound.  And I'm sure the same is very true for Breezy Point.  I toughed it out to windward despite the poor tacking angles, and found out the Mariner is more capable than I am.  Some thoughts:

• Reefing beforehand if I even think I'm going to need a reef
• consider reefed main alone, no jib if need be (Mariner is a 3/4 rig)
• wear my damn life jacket
• tether my cell phone and VHF radio to my life jacket
• get one of the new emergency strobes and tether that to my life jacket
• consider a personal locator beacon or other satellite emergency device
• stay in the creek/river if it's too rough in the Sound
• realize that small boats need an extra person for rail meat and assistance in rough conditions, don't go out single handed if it's too rough for single handing

Fred W
Stuart Mariner 19  Sweet P
Yeopim Creek, Albemarle Sound

[Quantico Frank]

Just my recent experience on my ODay Mariner.

Some thoughts:

• Reefing beforehand if I even think I'm going to need a reef
• consider reefed main alone, no jib if need be (Mariner is a 3/4 rig)
• wear my damn life jacket
• tether my cell phone and VHF radio to my life jacket
• get one of the new emergency strobes and tether that to my life jacket
• consider a personal locator beacon or other satellite emergency device
• stay in the creek/river if it's too rough in the Sound
• realize that small boats need an extra person for rail meat and assistance in rough conditions, don't go out single handed if it's too rough for single handing

Fred W
Stuart Mariner 19  Sweet P
Yeopim Creek, Albemarle Sound

Thanks for the great advice! In Norfolk I did have the advantage of having basically the entire Atlantic Fleet with eyes on what the heck I was doing out there with multiple harbor patrol craft around; and the water was "warm" so I probably would have attracted help fairly quickly. That is NOT the case in my home port of Quantico which is on a fairly dead stretch of the Potomac. Since I had seen this exact same movie another time a year or so ago and made it, and the previous day I had been stymied by high winds, I REALLY wanted to go that day. Probably not the best mindset.

I did have the boards, in closing the cabin, my life vest on, and my cooler and sailing bag tethered to the cockpit, based on my experience and unfortunate sea stories from others on this forum. I always have a marlin spike/knife combo in my pocket tethered to a belt loop. What I wouldn't have access to without swimming to and getting into the cockpit for is a signaling device. It's possible I should pick up a small signaling mirror or locator device— have to figure out how best to carry it.

[Brian N.]

Observation about the P165 pointing: I've noticed very little (if any) difference in the P165's ability to point with mainsail only, when compared to with the jib up. There is a difference in ability to tack and come about quickly, but to me the difference in pointing seems insignificant. Anyone else feel this is true? I also wonder about pointing under main alone on other Precision models. Disclaimer: I've never compared compass headings, so this is very unscientific or verified.

[talbot]

All the advice sounds right. My experience on our P21 and earlier on a smaller O'Day is that the mainsail alone is very inefficient, even less so when reefed. In high winds, the boat may not have enough speed to complete a tack. It falls back to windward, or worse, gets stuck in irons. I have to fall off to a reach, get up as much speed as I can, and then put the helm hard alee and hope I have enough momentum to come about. Often doesn't work. I was not able to handle 20kt winds in either boat until I added a second reef to the main to reduce heel, and a storm jib or furler so I could maintain speed with a smaller headsail.

[Straander]

Thanks, everyone for the advice. A storm jib would be nice, and I would have rigged it at the pier last week, but rigging it underway in that wind and sea single handed would have essentially been going for a swim even if still attached to the boat by my tether. I'm starting to also think about a roller furling jib again despite how much I like my current setup with the hank-on and downhaul. I've never really paid attention to this before, but would having some headsail on do much to improve the pointing ability of the boat? Thanks!

If you want, I can get you the measurements for my high wind jib I got last year. About 65% the area of the stock jib. As people have mentioned, I wouldnt change it on the water. But when I'm rigging up in the boat ramp, I decide then which jib would be the smartest choice for that day. It makes a nice match with a reefed mainsail.

Bill at Precision was able to get it in as part of his (bi?) yearly order from Rolley Tasker for about $350 with piston hanks installed.

[Quantico Frank]

If you want, I can get you the measurements for my high wind jib I got last year. About 65% the area of the stock jib. As people have mentioned, I wouldnt change it on the water. But when I'm rigging up in the boat ramp, I decide then which jib would be the smartest choice for that day. It makes a nice match with a reefed mainsail.

Bill at Precision was able to get it in as part of his (bi?) yearly order from Rolley Tasker for about $350 with piston hanks installed.

Straander, that would be great! In Norfolk once again this week, I cancelled myself out of a sail on Monday for high winds and cut it shorter than I'd like yesterday for the same reason. "Windy" had predicted steady 10kts with no gusts, but I saw 20 again on my wind sensor with seas to match. It would sure be nice to have a storm jib as an option. Thanks!

[Straander]

Sure Frank here you go. Looks like the file upload scripting for this site has changed. Hopefully it shows up.

But yeah, just contact sales@precisionboatworks.com. Let him know this is the same sail he made for "Brennon" last year.

It sounds like they make 2-4 orders from Rolley Tasker a year, so you'll have to wait for whenever their next one comes up to get this thrown in with it.

They threw on a big orange dot near the top of mine for some reason. You may want to ask that not be included.

[Charles Brennan]

Straander, Here is a link explaining how to get pics into a post after the recent software upgrade.

https://trailersailor.com/forum/index.php?topic=4.msg5265#new

Hope this helps,
Charles Brennan