General Talk: OT, not about sailing

[Riley Smith]

Ok, I know this is a sailing board and is concerned primarily with boats. HOWEVER the last time I looked very few folks are employed full time as captains, and although I do what I can to keep the tales coming, I get bored sometimes too, and look elsewhere. After all, I am not a one dimensional person and have interests in a variety of topics. One of which is space/defense/aerodynamics/engineering and manufacturing. This is about THAT, and not about boats. OT we used to say.

 So....here goes. If you aren't interested, don't read it. And yes, I realize this topic can get touchy if it veers in the wrong direction, so I'll support your effort to keep it in bounds.

The stealth concept, with regard to the aerial weapons we possess, was an overwhelming advantage. Now, it wasn't perfect and it could be detected, but stealth technology and the tactics to use it to its best advantage has allowed the USA to reign supreme in the aerial arena for some time. I don't know electronics but the long wave radars used to search were able to focus on the targets to some degree. Which was like saying there's a Cajun in Louisiana. It couldn't put the cross hairs on the target. I say I don't know electronics but these are some of the things I've gleaned from massive research over the years. And peering at an obscure picture through a national security lens to boot.

That advantage was used by Israel to fly all over Iran awhile back and send them pictures of all their prized possessions, without being detected. WITHOUT BEING DETECTED. Oh yeah, it was some advantage. Word is the Iranian Defense Minister didn't fare too well from that encounter.

 And so it went, because there are facets of stealth that are compartmentalized (I assume). And it isn't JUST a funny looking aircraft but a RANGE of technologies, from the shape, to what the things are built out of, to the way it is flown, that ultimately determines its effectiveness. A recent analysis of China's attempts seem to indicate that so what, they're building stealth aircraft. The very materials they're built out of, from coatings to physical materials, to philosophy in design, have been said to be out of their reach. Their THERMAL image is much bigger than ours and almost everyone has infrared scopes. What I'm saying is they haven't been able to match it. But that overwhelming advantage isn't so overwhelming if you can finally target the plane.

The Serbs shot down one of the initial Stealth planes using tactics. They had a good idea what the target was and were warned it was on the way (they smelt the gumbo). They waited until the plane had opened it's bomb bay doors and became visible to what was available at the time, and THEN fired the radar up and sent a SAM to meet it. That was the first generation and we're a little further along now with stealth technology AND radars.

The Israeli's just got painted (locked on) by a fire control radar in their recent retaliatory attack on Iran. They may have lost a plane too, I couldn't tell. Which means they can now be shot down. China has already been claiming they can "see" it too. So a big deal just went up in smoke. And if they DID get one shot down, every tiny piece left is being looked at by our enemies.

 SO...even if they CAN'T reproduce it, it matters. It's amazing what you can find if you look. Tom Clancy used available public material to write his books, exposing (some) of the tactics and capabilities of our submarines in the "Hunt for Red October". Really heavy duty stuff out in the open. You just have to LOOK.

[Norm L.]

That is very scientific (and expensive) progress. Wars, and businesses have been centuries of A staying ahead of B only to be passed by E who gets challenged by A & B, etc.

In the high-tech world a digital company with a 3-year-old idea that has not made a profit gets bought out for $1.3 billion.

We have been using drones for 5 years. I've been following what they do but not how they do it. The one 5 years ago was similar to what is available from scores of sources at acceptable prices.
I wanted to write this month's blog on drones so had to have my hand held by our drone guy who explained and sent me a half dozen links for reading.
The current one can fly inside (no GPS connection) for an unlimited time (no worry about enough battery to carry a heavy weight and bright lights) with a very high-res camera, a constant gas sensor and the ability to do non-destructive testing. All this being sent live to the pilot and to any permitted party. Located anywhere.
This is accepted by the American Bureau of Shipping so the guy that used to crawl around in dark, damp, hot, dirty spaces, possibly while climbing scaffolding (expensively and time consuming installed) can watch it while sitting in an airconditioned office 500 miles away. I used to do that crawling and the drone is reducing the risks to personnel.

This gives you an idea of the pay load and control that is a part of warfare drones. They are battery powered but for relatively short flight times. The pilot's input needs to be protected. The software development needs to stay a step ahead of the other side. The software we use is constantly growing to offer more to customers.

[Doug SC]

In the current aerial domain, the small FPV drones (where the pilot wears a headset and sees through the drone's camera) are inexpensive and wreaking havoc in combat situations. The electronic frequencies used to maintain contact with the drones are where much of the battle is being fought in the area of interference and counter measures. They are fairly easy to fly, relatively cheap as a weapons system, and can be produce in quantities.

The leading maker with the most advanced commercial GPS camera drones in the world is DJI in China. I saw one like my kids gave me being used by Ukrainians in the early stages of the war as spotters and surveillance. They even come with collision avoidance sensors and the ability to actively follow a locked-on target.

Here is a video of what drone hobbyist GPS drones can do. The drone is doing most of the flying with someone with a screen deciding what they want it to do Like where to position it at the beginning of a shot or break off from tracking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_J_BIX7chU

Here is a video of a hobbyist doing all the flying of an FPV drone. They often build their own drones. Oops here is the right video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08cDNbkoIuk

You can see the weapons potential of these small drones.

[Doug SC]

 I should add DJI has amazing software development. They lead the commercial market.
 Norm we were typing at the same time.

[Riley Smith]

Oh you guys just don't know! I was specifically writing about stealth technology, but drones are a whole 'nother subject entirely. Back on the subject of stealth, the local shipyard built some corvettes for Israel. I was told the round shape of handrail stanchions lit up the radar like a Christmas tree. They wound up being triangular in final shape. If you know a LITTLE and think like a radio wave, and look and reason, you can sorta tell some of the secrets. The sides of that Corvette superstructure were angled out at the top, reflecting the radar energy toward the deck. And although I didn't see it and nobody told me, that deck was coated with radar absorbing materials (ram). One component being almost microscopic iron balls which vibrate and diffuse the energy. I assume there are certain sizes of balls to match the frequency to be muted. And on and on.....

[Norm L.]

The videos were amazing. The new ones are of course FPV. One of our first jobs, in 2018, the drone was programed to fly a search pattern to look for a sunken barge in the lake. It was a lot cheaper and faster than a boat doing a surface search with sonar on board. The lake was clear enough that it could be seen from the air but not from the surface until you were right over it.
For a special challenge we built a custom RC car with a video camera on board. It made a bottom inspection of a huge dredge on an even larger ocean-going barge. The underneath space was under 12". Once the dredge was removed from the barge the dredge owner could not make a claim for hull damages while it worked in building the Saudi Palm Tree Island and being loaded onto the barge for return to the U.S. Happily, no damages.
Do a search for the Saudi Palm Tree Island and see what a whole lot of oil money can do.

[noelH]

Closet UAS flier off and on since post recession. Quadcopter, what most consider as drones are not looked on positively up in this neck of the woods. Scott Bretting in Ashland,WI shot one down back in 2022. Local law enforcement, FAA (not legal to shoot down UASs), FBI (occurred on Tribal Lands) all involved. Bretting has deep pockets and claims not to have after admitting (police report) doing so when he realized shooting down a UAS is a potential felony.

FAA Registration expired in '18.  Just back into flying both FPV, LOS quads and fixed wing platforms last Spring. If you fly outdoors anywhere FAA has jurisdiction. Even over private property. Proof of passing the TRUST program must be carried with you. If you fly anything over 249gm you need to register with the FAA and obtain a Small UAS Registration.  250gm and up the UAS must have a RID, which you register with the FAA. In the past you were limited to a 25mW video transmitter unless you had a HAM license. All this to fly just for fun. Any other reason or if you get any form of payment requires Part 107 and a bunch of different variances for specific situations.

Use to be a "modeler", but with my old age laziness just prefer to fly v. build, tune, fly, crash, repair, repeat until trashed and just salvaging parts. So I did something I never thought I would do. Became part of the DJI "ecosystem".  A real closed "ecosystem" and until recently a bit invasive when it comes to privacy.  But their tech is more or less state of the art.  Only two models flown. Avata2 and just recently purchased Neo. Neo is their least expensive quad until you add all the hardware needed to fly anything but "autonomous, aka selfie mode".  Amazing ~$200 quad. Latest and most advance DJI video system. The previous generation 03 video system alone  use to retail for MSRP of $239, but now reduced to $179 and out of production. Range under ideal conditions is further than you can fly due to battery capacity(supposedly +10km).  In what DJI calls N and S mode with their MotionController3 anyone can fly from day one. No skill really needed. Total opposite if you switch over to real Manual mode with trad. stick controller.  IMHO, DJI came out with a "winner". Price point for what you get is a good value. With the FPV RC3 controller you can select even in flight N,S,or manual mode. Landing and hitting the landing pad became easy when flying Manual mode. Just flip the mode switch to N. Backwash, wind. No issue. Digital quality video live view and recorded. Sub 249gm. Multiple autonomous features including various tracking modes for all you selfie people. Personally could care less about selfie modes. Into immersive flying. Handles up to F4 breeze better than any other 135gm quad I've every flown. Lightweight and underpowered quads fly manual mode require a high degree of skill under those conditions or fly and crash like a fluttering leaf.

The commercial DJI drones are a whole other world in terms of tech. IIRC, one of their commercial docking stations retails in the 5 digit range. Add the vehicle to move the dock around.  I think their agricultural unit that can spray fields has a 50 kg payload capacity. The geo positioning is way more accurate than our toy DJIs. The two I fly if I activate or it goes into auto RTH(return to home) usually misses the landing pad by a good meter. Programing determines when to activate auto RTH based on distance and battery capacity remaining. Good old days we use guess and hope and sometime cook a battery or take a hike to retrieve.  Assuming you can find a downed drone. DJI has a "find my drone" feature. But you still need to take a hike.

Retired neighbor use to be a Tribal Forester.  When he retired the Tribe was using drones for scaling wood. The time savings and cost saving were significant. One "local" commercial drone operator. Until local law enforcement acquired their own drones he was it for search and rescue. Thermal imaging camera on one of his drones. Now you can pay the man mega $$s for locating the deer you shot that you probably should have passed on. Some tourist love to have video footage of themselves. Now they can just purchase their own Neo and stuff it in a daypack with a few extra batteries. Just what we need. More clueless tourist being followed around by their personal Neo dronie. Guessing majority are clueless for the need of TRUST certification or don't care.

[noelH]

Brain took a real tangent when the word drone was posted.

Regarding stealth. One of the issues are the radio transmission signal needed to control the drone and the video transmission signal if needing live view. Guessing someone in some country's defense department has designed a finder. Also assuming since drone radio jammers have existed for a time that the drone used to bomb people are preprogrammed to fly to a given target area. Or do as the Ukrainian have done months ago. They have already hacked into DJI. Assuming to mess up any DJI drone flying around that they prefer would be grounded.

Stealth tech if possible for a drone similar to the DJI's agricultural spraying drone would make life even more miserable for people living in a conflict zone.  Imagine a bad person just packing a detonating device to cause the lithium battery to explode. Instead of 50kg of herbicide you stick a 50kg larger lithium battery onto the drone. Might not even need a detonating device. Just the impact with the ground might set off a bad lithium explosion and fire.

[Riley Smith]

The drone tech is amazing in it's sophistication and frightening in its implications. Some of the Russian soldiers were wanting shotguns. Now, even saying that word to a military person brings a sneer, but I wouldn't want to leave my foxhole without it! No kidding, the MIC has been looking at all kinds of ways to counter those things, but nothing works across the board. Except lead. A person that hasn't EVER fired a rifle before the military trying to hit that bumble bee with ONE round per shot? You're mostly wasting your time, even one who had had MUCH training would find it difficult. I want Model 12 Winchester in that mud and wet.

[Doug SC]

I think I would want something like a 10 or 12ga with 3.5" BBs and a thick shoulder pad. Actually it would probably need a magazine. Now think drone swarms.

A close friend hunted with an old model 12 Winchester pump.

[Norm L.]

Being Veterans Day/Remembrance Day I had a nice exchange with a friend, and he mentioned 186 missions in a small plane doing intelligence work in VN. A bigger target than a drone. 

[noelH]

I think I would want something like a 10 or 12ga with 3.5" BBs and a thick shoulder pad. Actually it would probably need a magazine. Now think drone swarms.

A close friend hunted with an old model 12 Winchester pump.

Even as a drone flier the thought of shooting one out of the sky has occurred. I find drones flying over me offensive. Technically with a Small UAS Registration you cannot fly over moving vehicles or people. Part 107 holders are required to get a special permit or use of a sub 250gm drone with propeller guards. People don't realize in WI there is an ordinance protecting you privacy against any aerial video or audio recording. Bit vague ordinance. You have to feel that you privacy is infringed upon and hope the law enforcement and judge agree.  Hard to catch the drone user. I guess you need to shoot it down and hope the user registered with the FAA. But then you just committed a felony.

Remington 870. Personal firearm of choice. Found it very effective against varmints. Friend who is into hunting and trap, skeet, and sporting clay owns one gun. Remington 870. Different barrels for different use. Rem Choke allows you to screw in different chokes. I remember paying ~$200 new years ago. Friend's is much older. At a range one day another friend broke out his latest acquisition he purchased for a 5 digit amount at an auction. Beautiful shotgun. Just didn't shoot as well as the 870 if hitting the clay pigeons is what counts. Or maybe the shooter?